We broke up together (forgive the length ok?)

As the title explains, we broke up together. The reason I didn't file this under the "dumping" forum is because i'm looking at it from the bigger picture of dating. I guess I learned some things and so did she.

I went over there without calling or anything. She seemed half awake and was getting a bottle ready for her nephew. I came over with the intention of breaking up, I knew that. I even had the "key to her heart" in my pocket to give back to her. I gave her a bag and said "happy graduation" because I got her those things for her graduation, not to save us or anything. She said thanks.
After a few moments she goes "It was sweet of you to bring me a gift but I don't feel like I should take it." (I was really surprised because she was taking the same step I was about to! I didn't think we'd mutually break up at the same time!) She went on starting to cry "I can't keep doing this to me or you, it's not fair to either of us but it hurts just the same to talk to you about it." I gave a small smile and said "I know, that's why I came over here too." and she said "I knew that today would be the day, that you would come over, I just didn't know how."

We talked for quite awhile. Going over things a little, discussing feelings and when things changed and it was rather enlightening. Sure I was hurt and dissapointed that she has someone else in her heart besides me, but then again, I always knew she did. (Pat)

Like I said in an earlier post, she got mad at me last night and went to see him. She told me today that "I know from talking with him that it was just a matter of time before we got together (for sex, not relationship) and if I was still with you when that happened, i'd be two-faced and it would just be wrong. You don't deserve that." And I said "I know I don't. I never did anything to get that from you. But I've been an easy target haven't I? You don't fear me or feel threatened by me so it wouldn't be hard to take advantage of how I treat you good would it?" And she nodded. I told her "I'm glad you're honest about it. And it doesn't matter if you already did something with him last night, the fact is your heart hasn't been with me for awhile now." and she goes "But it does matter because I wasn't with him, but the feelings I have bottled up for him and the way i'm feeling after this last month (referring to no sex for over a month at all) I know we're going to hook up." I said "Honestly, if that's what you want, then I wish you the best of luck together." She goes "It would never work, we know that. I've never been able to get over feelings for him. I'm just attracted to him totally. My mom even said "I can't believe you're going out with him (me), he's a nice guy and you like the bad boys." And I knew she was right. I do like them and I do get hurt but part of me feels like I deserve it. Besides, it's just sex between him and me." (Oh, like that makes me feel SOOO much better. That you'd rather be with a guy just for sex, knowing you CAN'T have mutual love, and leave someone who has treated you better than you've even known."

I said "Well, you're going to live your own life and do your own things. I know you. I know you're going to go out and be wild and crazy and you're going to get hurt again. It's just the kind of people you go after. You lucked out with me because it could've just turned into a booty thing if I wasn't the nice guy that I am." We discussed this for a little bit and she got defensive and said "Please stop lecturing me. I'm not a student, I don't want you to be a teacher. You've always made me feel that way. That you were trying to make me become someone i'm not." (And the truth is I kinda was. Not cool)
I apologized to her and said that Yes, there were times I tried to sway you.
She said that I made her feel very bad in the car and that if she wasn't "trapped" in there with me, she would have been able to speak up and tell me that she wanted it to be over with, that she isn't in love with me anymore.

But in our talks she told me that I was the first guy to make her really feel love. That I was the first to give her an orgasm, (I even told her "that's ok, you don't have to flatter me." but she said "No, it's really true. I know that from what we went through." So I guess I did one thing ok) She said that I was so good to her. I was TOO NICE to her. She felt that she knew it was too good to be true and that it wouldn't last because of it. She said it always comes out that the guys she's attracted to have a drug/lying/cheating/beating problem and that's how it goes. She said she felt like she didn't deserve to be treated so nice all the time. She even said "Why couldn't you have been mean sometimes?" I said "Because it's not me. I loved you for you. I didn't have to use bad things to express myself." When I mentioned how she meets guys and how she'll sleep with Pat or whoever to forget about me or let go of stress, she said "I don't really care that it's my body." I said "But what if some guy gives you herpes or something? no cure. she goes "I get what I deserve." (Jesus. Same thing/attitude Robin said."

I found out other things that she felt I messed up on. Being controlling which she spoke of before, and also the age thing (involving plans like clubbing that I couldn't go with) and also just the time in life. I'm ready for my career and looking for a mate, and she's ready to go wild and party and live it up until whatever hits the fan and she has to slow down and face reality.
I told her that I just want her to be happy for her. That I hope she finds happiness within herself and I think she'll have a hard time doing that unless she spends some time alone. She said "whenever i'm alone, I have time to look inside my head and i'm not happy with what I see. It's not good things I think and feel. But don't think i'd do something crazy!" (suicidal reference) I said "Of course you won't. You have people to fall back on. You have him." She goes "we've always been there for each other. That's what we have. I called him last night after you made me angry and asked him to pick me up. he said 'so what's wrong with you and yo man?' and I said 'how did you know'? Hehe. He knows me so well." (I got frustrated at seeing how ingrained he is in her mind. Of course it's simple to see that when a friend calls you up at 11 PM and says "come get me" that something is troubling them. She's just that naive to think that he "knows" her mind. She leaves it open for whoever wants to peek. It doesn't take a Freud to see that.)

I said "Well, it's good you have a F-buddy to go for support and release of frustrations. I've never had one and I know when I walk away today, I won't do that. And she softly said "But you're stronger than me." and maybe I am. Actually, I know I am, but we all turn to our own devices. Girls just use sex as a coping tool. I hate to think that. That sex is just a tool, it's not about "love".
She said "I hope we can go bowling again sometime" and laughed, but I knew she didn't really want to. She said "did you still want to come to the graduation ceremony?" I knew I had to let her save face and be the man so I said "You know, that's really nice of you to ask and I know it's out of respect..but I think it would be better if I pass. You understand." And she smiled and nodded and I saw the relief in her eyes. She said earlier when we first talked that she said "when you walk out that door i'm going to go and cry and cry hard." And when I left, I didn't think she really would. I didn't feel that. I almost felt her run upstairs to call Pat that we broke up and it's finally over.

I was talking and I could see that she wanted me to leave. That she was drained and had enough and had gotten closure and everything. She said that if we broke up in the car she'd probably do something stupid to find out WHY things happened. Even though she felt the same way after the car, she said she TRIED to think things through and make it work. She said she wanted me to know that she didn't stop trying to have us work because when she said that she loved me and saw us together, she really meant it. It's just that things change in time and we grew apart. That she doesn't know where her heart truly lies, ( We know it's Pat) but that about a month ago she started falling out of love with me. (I felt it too and that brought me away from her.) She also used my cop career as a small excuse saying "That scared me to death thinking that my husband could not come home some day."

And we talked about marriage. She admitted that she really isn't ready, that she wants to live and have fun before settling down, but that she saw things in me that she'd want in someone. Just not me. She said "It's not like I won't try to date a nice guy again." And I said "Of course. I know you will, just not for awhile. Not until you've been hurt again, that's just how the cycle goes." She looked hurt at that but said "If it does, it does."

She said at some point that "You've always treated me so good and that whenever anyone ever asks "Who was he?" I can tell them that "he was good to me and was a great guy." She said "It would almost be easier to have something to hate you for and walk away, that's what makes this hard." (Sure, but it makes it so much easier to spread your legs for a guy probably the same night you dump your ex right? I just can't figure why women do that)

(continued below)

I said "at least it's better to walk away with a smile then nothing at all." and she laughed and smiled and said "yeah, I guess it is." She gave me a hug and basically shoed me out the door but I reached out my hand to give her something and I placed that key in her hand. She goes "Oh, I was wondering about that too." I said "This doesn't belong to me anymore, it's always been yours. I know it (the key was her great grandfathers and one of her only possesions given to her and she gave it to me) is a small treasure of yours and I wouldn't think of keeping that from you." She smiled all innocent like and turned from side to side impatiently. I hugged her again and said "Good luck with life and everything." (dumb yeah, but what else can you say?) She goes "You too. And maybe we'll see each other again somewhere down the road." I smiled and said "Maybe we will. Goodbye." And that was that.


So here I am typing this up to share with others. Part of my way of coping sure. Of course i'm sore and angry that she kept the truth from me for a month and her heart wasn't really with me. It was just the same as my LAST relationship. My ex wasn't over HER ex, and I was just a placeholder for the moment. I was the same to Joy. EXCEPT, I feel that she really did give of herself to me. She DID share part of her and wasn't selfish. Of course, she didn't give 100% and gave up when there was frustration. But then again, she wasn't ready for me. I really wasn't ready for her either. Her heart wasn't over her past and still isn't, and mine wasn't ready to give everything it had.

I knew the risks and I took them. She said "It hurts so much knowing that I hurt you this way." I told her "No you didn't. I know what I was getting into. I knew the risks and consequences with giving this a chance. The important thing was that we TRIED. We gave it a chance and it didn't work. But we took the time to try and met someone else that made us feel special if only for a little while. I was only here for a short while, but I think I made you feel something inside that you haven't really before. Now you know what you want to feel regardless of if you deserve it or not. And the times we spend together that were good, well, they were great. I can honestly say that you gave me the best affection and unselfish caring and affection i've ever had in my life from a relationship. You gave of yourself equal and over me at times. That felt wonderful."

And she goes "You made me feel like I was on a pedestal above you because you treated me so nice" (Right there is a flaw I made. Yes, women love to feel that but once they do, they think that their man values THEM over himself and therefore isn't as strong as her should be. No man should put anyone higher than themselves. And the truth is I didn't FEEL like I did that to her, but she was so used to not HAVING that, so it MADE her feel that, thus ruining my intentions in that respect)
I told her "I never gave you any super special treatment. I put you level with me and just acted like me, and it felt like I put you on top of the world because that's how you perceived it. But i'm glad I made you feel that in your life." She said "I never felt that before. Even just taking me out to eat or to a movie, I never had that before with a guy. (Christ! She really has been in abusive relationships! No wonder I was no match being a "nice guy"! I HATE people knowing that the MOMENT they meet me! I'm so F'n easy to judge! Any Masculenity on my half appears to just be a joke or "cute" or some crap. Yes yes, I know if I FAKED being that, Joy would proabably be with me longer and happier, but it's not who I AM! I'm not a JERK and i'm attracted to women that like JERKS, therefore, I always LOSE because I will not change! I hate it that i'm not attracted to stable, kind, loving, trusting people! I actually SEE this and KNOW it but just don't give a damn regarding my own feelings! I am the reason I HURT! Not these other people!
Joy had flaws from the beginning. My brain said that day I met her "Warning! Red Alert! Abuse survivor, broken, flawed, damaged! Retreat from area! Repair is unavailable and UNNESSESARY for YOUR HAPPINESS!" Yes, I tried to mold her out of it, I tried to change what was broken but I DIDN't and NEVER WOULD have the parts to do so! And I knew it and proceeded regardless.

Why do I not just TRUST MYSELF? I spout stuff to other people and give advice and i'm the biggest F'n hypocrite because I don't practice what I preach! I know i'd be 200% happier if I just listened to the ENTIRE ME! I always do stuff half assed like this. Use my heart, or just my brain, never both! And if I do use both, it's always for just long enough to get by.

My close friend Steve talked to me about this. He knows I gave that initial impresion to Joy that I was kinda a bad boy. Mysterious and wild. Not tamed by life, or women or career. I acted like I didn't NEED her and I really didn't. But I ended up ACTING like I did and FEELING that way! Then the charade was over. She loves Pat and is attracted to him because he's the bad boy and she KNOWS she can't HAVE him or TAME him.

I became a house cat. :lol:

lol. I really did. I wasn't a dog, I had pride and was independant but I became docile and COMFORTABLE with her and opened up. Like how cats really do WANT others to give them affection, but they can go off and do their own thing, but they always know where to come back for food/love/affection. It's funny becuase she has issues with that. She said I was the only guy she was COMFORTABLE enough around to actually FALL ASLEEP next to and not FAKE BEING ASLEEP. Isn't that sad? She actually wanted to NOT be comfortable with me. She WANTED me to hurt her at some point. Thus, the cycle of an abuse survivor. She'll get back with Pat KNOWING, honestly KNOWING! That it won't work but HOPING it will. I'm not angry at her, I pity her because the good times she gave me, I know she really deserves better and it's sad because the abuse mentality is so engrained in her head that she doesn't want to ACCEPT any other way. She even said that "I'm so USED to being hurt, it doesn't feel right unless somehow I am." How sick and sad is that?

But i'm rambling.
It's just been a long month. I've already thrown out the pictures and letters and cards and such. I did keep one picture that she gave me today of us at prom. I'm going to put it away with other things from my past and someday I can look back and reflect on this point of my life. Yes, I know people burn that stuff as closure, but we already talked. I already knew what to expect and say and I was dead on 80% of the way. The other 20% was things she said I didn't realize but they were all moot by then.

So do I look back with regret? No. Do I look back and feel hurt? Sure, a little, it's never a good feeling to be rejected for something else. Do I look back and feel good about anything? Of course I do. We had some kick ass times for about 3 months. I felt so unbelivably alive it wasn't even funny. It's actually kind of sad really. I should feel alive and happy JUST being me. But I don't. I feel that need and draw between other people to make me happy. Yes, it's a problem. But like Joy, at least I SEE the problem. Acting out in the right way with it is another story.

I don't think i'm completly co-dependant, but I can BECOME that way EASILY in the right circumstances. I don't feel like i'm having a mid-life crisis, (i'm too young right?) but at times I look at me and say "I'm 26, i'm making jack shit, I don't have many skills for life, I can't keep a decent relationship going, I can't see anything positive in my future. What a looser."

And that's not really fair because I have done lots of things. I have experienced much. I've met people, and been places and had fun and sorrow's just like anyone else. But I feel like i've messed up along the way. That i've just been lazy, or missed an opportunity, or just given up and self-pitied myself. But why? There's friends of mine who are my age and married but they still have careers to make. I have friends who have careers and aren't with anyone, and I have friends with a companion but are miserable.
It's like I know that i'm special. Yet, i'm nobody. I'm just another human being in a world of billions. The marks I leave will be tiny and forgetten in time. So why do I bother? Because it's MY LIFE! I want to make something better for ME! I don't know what the hell it is, but I want it!

I saw a bumper sticker the other day and it hit me like a ton of bricks. It read like this. "God > I < " which translated underneath as "God is to become greater than I, while I must become less."
That makes alot of sense speaking from a spiritual standpoint. It's kind of ironic too. I've been putting off reading a bible study book brushing it off for excuses. When I read it, things were better between Joy and I. The ironic part is this passage I found that mentions the word "Joy" not as HER name but the feeling of Joy. It says: God teaches us real joy in the midst of sorrow, when we turn to him. Happiness depends on external circumstances, but joy is based on your relationship with God.

(closing below..I swear it's almost over! lol)

That's kinda funny in a way because we shared a spiritual side together. She was the first gf I had who openly HAS a relationship with God and enjoyed sharing that with me. It's just that it's not enough to sway her from other things that might be immoral or untrue to herself. (ie: Being abused and letting it go on, giving her body up without caring to who or why, low self-esteem) But I hope that she'll understand those factors and do better for herself. I can't make her but I can pray for her and I will. I know she will for me too, she still hopes I make this career a reality.

But that's not the point of the passage. The point is we create/destroy happiness from what happens to us and how we perceive things. But real, deep down well being is from trusting in God and knowing he has a plan for us. He has a plan for me and Joy wasn't the one I should be with in the future. It's ok that I know that and discovered that from sorrow. Better than hang on to something that isn't real and Joy said the same thing.

Thanks for reading this. I know it was very long but this was something very meaningful and important to me that happened. I hope I can look back on this and continue to push myself to better things. I'm going to just be me and not fake or hide it. Someone out there is my match and wants what I have to give and will be attracted to the real me, not what they hope I could be. I know a little bit more than I did before yesterday. Tomorrow i'll know more than today. As long as we keep moving forward, we'll be ok. Even if we don't know where we have to look ahead or else we'll miss all the wonderful things that the future might hold.

I'm not sorry I took a chance. I look forward to the next time I get to take that jump with my eyes closed. (but there's nothing wrong with taking a quick peek before I do...just to be sure.) ;-)

Thanks to all who read my story. I appreciate you letting me share this.

uh where is it continued man? Here I was right in the middle of this and thats it?

Well I'll say this Bono-she knew-but she kinda tried-it comes right back to the age and her mentality right now-gosh im sorry for YOU. Its weird I read somewhere that if youre seriously considering ending a relationship you should talk to your partner cause they may feel the same...hmmm-and its an x with her. Well Bono you did the right thing-and at least the very least you left things on a decent level and she didnt have some shit fit anywhere. YOU can look at this as a learning experience though-and walk away knowing what kind of an impact you had on her life!

NOW-my suggestion is to stay away from the younger girls-theyre just not ready for the committment youre looking for-like she said she wants to have fun-and even though its a generalization on women that age-for the most part its true. Go find you a woman whose ready to make that kind of committment and has done her partying and getting it all out of her system-then it wont come back to bite you in the ass.

You did the right thing.

[QUOTE=squirrley]uh where is it continued man? Here I was right in the middle of this and thats it? QUOTE]

Check again, you must have read it while I was posting the rest.

Thanks squirrley. I'm feeling pretty glum about the whole thing but I know it'll pass. It just those days that go by when you really wish you had someone to share the good times with are the ones that get you down.

Yes, she told me that knowing that she wanted to go out and party and live like an 18 yr old and that I was done, put a damper on things. But it was just one more negative added to the big picture. Of course that wasn't THE reason she wanted it to end.
It was very surreal having it be an actual MUTUAL breakup. I came over to breakup, she started breaking up with me before I had the chance to start. We both had the same agenda in that respect.

I guess i'm happy for her if she feels her happiness lies elsewhere. But right now I really just want to be happy for me. I'm not sure where to begin but not giving up. I don't have time to give up. :-P

I did catch the rest of it-was responding before i even let you finish-sorry-but ive been on top of your situations so hence I jumped right in-sorry.

Well Bono-at least you know shes not holding resentment-and it was mutual. I think a part of you hurts knowing why she ended it also-Id be hurt too. It wouldve been easier "not knowing" then! But she was honest. Give her that much credit...well that and you deserved to know the truth.

So NOW you start over-you said you had no regrets...but start over for yourself. Bono-your'e 26 not 56! You have plenty of time to come across the "right" Mrs. Bono! You do! Good things come to those who wait...and its the truth-finding yourself and maybe you already know all of that-but take time to heal from this one first before going out and finding another person. I know it hurts not having someone to hold and share those wonderful feelings with someone who gives it back. Ive been there-wanting it so bad you could taste it. But I had to realize thats not what makes me complete-I make myself complete. I dont have to tell you these things-you already know. Youve learned a lot from Joy too-so take it with you-you understand why she was the way she was over the last month and as bad as that hurt-you can move on knowing it wasnt anything you did-you gave it your all! Probably more than she deserved.

Ya know-when females are at that "learning who they are" stage and what not-they dont appreciate or value or respect a man-its more of an infatuation thing going on...or the thought of just having a boyfriend. They dont look at whats really inside a man and what they have to offer-(i know i did too-so im including myself in that)but as you get older-and youre independant of a man, youre self sufficient, youre stable, youre happy with yourself, you then see men differently. And look at someone who comes along in a different light. Theyre not an asshole-theyre not out to use you-there are some real decent men left out there-but the right woman has got to come along for you and understand YOU! What it is you want what youre needs are-being on the same level. Its so important to have those things-communication and what not-and it just wasnt there for Joy-shes not ready. You know not to blame yourself for it. Its commendable you wish her well...I did that to the last guy who messed with my emotions pretty bad-but I still feel good knowing that I walked away with the dignity and pride that was within me. And youre doing the same thing-which is great and you rexognize it.

I wish the very best in your search for Mrs. Bono-and at least youre taking those chances-makes the odds better my friend!

I know the core of why it ended was her feelings for her ex. That was obvious, but she pointed out alot of things I was doing wrong that I actually TRIED not to do.

I made her feel that I lifted her on a pedestal above me. Ok, nice thing to do to someone, BUT women don't want a man who will put anyone before them. A man should be a man. He comes first in his eyes. That's power and desirable. I actually TRIED not to do that to her. I did less with her than I did my previous ex who felt I put her above me. So I tried, HOWEVER, Joy felt that what I did was princess treatment. Even taking her out to eat or to the movies and such was PRINCESS treatment in her eyes. So it wasn't that I purposely f'd up that way, it was that I didn't understand that what her interpretation was. Immaturity and insecurity on her part made my attempt a failure. I just went by past relationship judgement which didn't work in this case.

Another big thing to her was that she felt like I tried to MOLD her into what I wanted. I actually didn't TRY to do this but on a subconscious level, I KNOW I did. The things that were risky about her I didn't like, I tried to coeerce her into believing they were wrong/harmful/etc. I was manipulating her and I didn't even do a good job at it!

The BIGGEST thing that adds into the real reason was that I REJECTED Pat in her life. She knew I saw it as a threat and she on one hand DID remove herself from him more....BUT it drew her closer to him. Absence makes the heart...you know. :-P He is the one GREAT support in her life. She feels he will always be there, and her for him. Yeah, we all know he's just a user and player. He loves being able to get booty from her whenever he's having trouble with his own ladies. (currently) He has no problems giving up Joy for someone else. (has done so often) When Joy pressures him in having the relationship grow, he takes off and comes back when the cost is clear and she has that silly idea out of her head. Thus the cycle repeats.

I can't change that she thinks that way. It's stupid, immature, abuse mentality but I asked for it.
I know if I was COOL with Pat being around, he would grow on her anyway and she would most likely take advantage of my trust and cheat on me and then break up feeling guilty. (ala Robin)

I feel bad because this is the 3'RD TIME IN A ROW, i've been left for an EX! Damn! I know i'm dumb in the choices i've made but I don't think I deserve it! Hell, i've never cheated on someone before. (and the only time I got physical with another girl was after my one gf at the time TOLD ME that she cheated on me. So without so many words, we were through and I slightly fooled around touching and kissing another girl and then broke up soon afterwords officially. So, I don't count that as actually cheating since the relationship was terminated emotionally and physically prior to the actual words spoken)

But, where is that fine line between being a nice guy, and being a pushover? Why does the invitation of generosity and compassion become grounds for abuse?

With my luck with women and what i've learned, I honestly feel that I SHOULD become an @sshole. Or the "jerk" as you may know. I can meet women and get what I want from them. I won't put up with BS and relationship garbage and when I find someone with potential, then I pursue her but not get stepped on. If some hearts are hurt by me not sharing similar feelings, so what? They should've been more careful.

Of course this isn't really who I am, and I don't know how to be a player if my life depended on it. Only times I have were on accident. lol.

I just feel that the way to win someone's heart...is to not be me. That I just don't work. That I have to be someone else because other people get what they want, not me. It feels so storybook/hollywood to act romantic and be presentable and respect women because good guys finish first in the stories. But not in the real world. It's all kill or be killed, take what you can get and hold on to it or you'll lose it attitude.
It's just that from my understanding, women really DON'T want nice guys. They want jerks who SOMETIMES treat them nice. Every GF I had at some point, wanted me to be a jerk. And I wouldn't and they walked. I couldn't be a jerk and APPEAR to be a man. I was just a boy who loved them.

And the sad thing is, when I finally stand up to not take any sh*t from them, (Joy) they get upset and walk away. How the hell can I win? I'm a wuss for being a nice guy, but when I stand up for myself, i'm an @sshole and NOT a "jerk" who has attributes women want/desire. It just doesn't make sense. It's like they can see through me. "Yeah, you're standing up for my crap, but you should've put your foot down long ago so you think this impresses me? It just pisses me off that you're wasting my time now."

Like with Joy. As soon as I knew about her issues with Pat in her life I should have A: Walked or B: Put my foot down and said "Him or me. Not both." And probably would have been rejected. But I would have been kicked to the curb as a MAN.

I read your story and ohhh my God... your such an angel to those who are astray... :) I guess you have a mission why you are attracted to girls opposite to your character. You want them to change, right? but it doesn't make sense to them.

Well, All I can say I salute you. You deserve a God fearing person:)

Goodluck!

blued