How to stay out of the dreaded friends zone?

There's this girl I love in secret. For a number of reasons she is unattainable to me. I keep hoping to see some change in the future, but for now all I can do is wait. And torture myself.

She's in my music theory class. We see each other for a few hours every week over an intense study session with a teacher and another student. Very occasionally I drop both of them off at home and do small favors for them like copy exercice descriptions. Whenever I offer something, I always make sure the other guy in the class gets the same favor, so she might not think I'm treating her special. The other guy is really a nice kid, who deserves this same help. And money is not a problem for me, so the expenses are negligible.

But I really love her. Nothing shows she knows, but I don't dare underestimate female intuition. Maybe she acts like she doesn't know so she doesn't need to reject me.

My fear at the moment is to become too good a friend to be trapped in the friends zone. I keep my distances, but I don't know how to stay clear of it. Does anyone have anything sensible to say about this weird problem? What defines a friends zone? Why don't people (or girls, more to the point) want to start a relationship once you are in the friends zone?

I think the friend zone is an urban legend. You end up in the friend zone if the girl isn't attracted to you. No other reason. It's not because you didn't play your cards right, it's not because you're too nice, it's not because you waited too long to make a move. It's because she's not attracted to you and that's why she sees you as a friend, nothing more.

However, you don't know that you've been friend zoned. Why? Because you haven't made a move! I know it's hard, especially if you're shy, but you've got to do something. Ask her out for coffee or something casual. She hasn't rejected you yet; she probably doesn't even know you like her.

Good point, ShellyZ. The OP isn't in the Friend Zone, because they aren't even friends yet. However, I disagree that the Friend Zone is an urban legend. I spent plenty of time there when I was younger, long before we even had a name for it.

Here's how to avoid getting stuck in the Friend Zone:

1. As soon as you realize that you are interested in a woman, make your interest clear. Talk to her. Flirt with her. If you are flirting properly and she is already in a relationship, she will probably mention that as soon as she realizes that you are seriously flirting with her. Not necessarily in a blunt way, but she will find a way to work the phrase "my boyfriend" into the conversation at some point. Anyway, if the flirting goes well, ask her out soon. Wait too long, and you will wander into the Friend Zone.

2. If you're not sure if you have ended up in the Friend Zone anyway, then repeat 1, only with less subtlety. You're looking to eventually either get that first date or get rejected.

3. If despite your best efforts, you get rejected in a nice way that included use of the word "friend," you are in the Friend Zone. Or if you just aren't trying hard enough that you are getting either a date or a clear rejection, you are in the Friend Zone. Fortunately, escape from the Friend Zone is easy enough. Just turn around and walk away. You should already have enough friends in your life that you don't need a friendship that will cause you pain. It's bad enough seeing your crush date some other guy, but far, far worse when she feels she can talk to you about him because you're just a friend.

It's important that you get through these steps as quickly as possible, before you develop a big crush. Otherwise, you will suffer needlessly.

How to stay out of the dreaded friends zone? It's pretty easy. Don't play the part of a friend. Instead, play the part of someone who is trying to date her, because that's what you're trying to do.

I know some people take the "don't be her friend" thing to mean "be a jerk to her," but it's not like that. Never purposely be a jerk - it's really not necessary. You can be friendly, but be clear about your intentions and make some moves. If you don't do that, you can't later say, "I treated her like my best friend, and now she thinks we're best friends. Why won't she date me?!"

Thanks for the great replies, you all.

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Originally Posted by ShellyZ [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

It's because she's not attracted to you and that's why she sees you as a friend, nothing more.

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There's a lot of sense in that statement. Thanks.

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However, you don't know that you've been friend zoned. Why? Because you haven't made a move! I know it's hard, especially if you're shy, but you've got to do something.

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I'm not really shy. I joke around with directors and managers on job interviews. I can make friends with the worst recluse. I occasionally blahrlublahlblah around hot women, but this is not the problem here. (She is good-looking however).

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she probably doesn't even know you like her.

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I wish that is both the case and not the case. :-s

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Originally Posted by VincenzoG91 [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

the phrase "my boyfriend"

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There are mainly three reasons why I can't approach her romantically, one of which but not the biggest one is that she is indeed in a relationship, and I kind of respect that. I don't know the guy she's with well, but he looks like a nice kid. And breaking them up (which is against my principles) would probably cause her pain. I hope they grow bored of each other and separate amicably. But I feel guilty even thinking that.

There are other reasons but I don't want to write a wall of text here. Maybe in other posts.

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before you develop a big crush. Otherwise, you will suffer needlessly.

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Way too late for that. She's been in my thoughts for almost three years now. But I have a high pain tolerance.

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Originally Posted by MerryH [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Never purposely be a jerk - it's really not necessary

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I could never do that. I'm the archetypical nice-guy(TM). :-/

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Originally Posted by ShellyZ [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

I think the friend zone is an urban legend. You end up in the friend zone if the girl isn't attracted to you. No other reason. It's not because you didn't play your cards right, it's not because you're too nice, it's not because you waited too long to make a move. It's because she's not attracted to you and that's why she sees you as a friend, nothing more.

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I agree with you to an extent. Its all about sexual attraction.. and playing your cards right is involved in creating that, its not all down to physical appearance, its how a guy carries himself. There are some really attractive guys that you think 'that guy is attractive but im not feeling sexually attracted.. dont know why but he just doesnt do it for me.' But yeah, basically we only friend zone single guys if we're not sexually attracted to them. Some guys are good looking but dont know how to create sexual tension.. other guys are not so attractive but we see them as charasmatic because they know how to be sexually attractive.

Another thing about the friend zone is that we typically decide whether a guy is in the friend zone pretty quickly.. sounds like you've spent enough time with this girl that shes already decided what category you're in. You're not going to know what side you're on till you make a move. Better to find out sooner rather than later cos the category she wouldve placed you in now is unlikely to change.

If she's in a relationship, that changes everything. I don't see the point in pining after a woman who's already taken. Yes, they may break up eventually, but don't hold your breath waiting for that. Most women in happy relationships automatically friend zone all other guys immediately, because they're not interested in dating anyone else.

Also, when a woman says "Let's just be friends," she really means "I don't want to date you." She doesn't necessarily want to be friends, that's just her way of rejecting you politely. You don't have to worry that she's going to start treating you like a best friend and confidant.

Aww--you're so sweet! How can she not like you?! Ok, so here's my experience. I actually end up liking my friend! There is no such things as being stuck there unless she has no attraction to you what-so-ever. When I was in high school I had a friend who originally I had NO interests in. None at all. I could tell he liked me and I pretended not to notice so I won't make him feel uncomfortable or rejected when I show I wasn't feeling the same. He was a good guy and I valued our friendship so I didn't want to do that to him. Also, keep in mind I was abused at home at this time so I was not only distancing myself from guys (boys were the last thing on my mind) but also tried only dating men who were way too old for me that had an apartment so I can have a safe place to sleep. You know till they realize what I meant by sleeping over really meant sleeping lol. Then a year later I was getting myself into binds at home and began distancing myself from all my friends (Which he was in the group with about half of them) he then found me just sitting alone in my next class in the dark and we just talked a lot. He came by everyday during lunch away from everyone else just to talk to me. I was starting to feel closer to him but wasn't sure till he got himself a girlfriend! She was so using him, it was some wired senior chick (we were sophomores) that only wanted him because she didn't like me just only because her last boyfriend kept flirting with me (and failing by the way) till they broke up. I felt bad and tried talking to her but she decided she was going to have some type of vendetta toward me since then. So she thought me and my friend were dating since we spent so much time together and wanted to 'steal' him away. God, high school was such a pain in the ass. Anyway, after seeing what a great boyfriend he was regardless of her attitude when he finally found out she was cheating on him, I realized I actually really did like him. Unfortunately, he thought he was in the stupid "friend-zone" and never made a move till someone else swooped in and did.

So just be the good guy you are, friend or not. Just be there when she needs you and don't be afraid of taking a chance. You're doing great so far. Maybe ask her to a movie as a friend. Just tell her you feel dumb going alone but everyone else already seen it and you wanted to know if she'll come with you, your treat. If it helps to build the story, ask the other guy what movies he has seen. Then whatever he says be all like, "Ah no! You too? Man I can't get a break." then ask her if she'll come to whatever movie he's seen so he won't feel left out. During the night out just try to sense were things are at with her. Don't talk about your feeling or anything till you feel some type of chemistry and even then, wait till you're dropping her off. Keep it light like, "back when (insert time here) I had a little bit of a crush on you" depending how she responds will depend on what you should do next...if you're lucky you may get a kiss on the cheek. Just don't say anything about love. It's way too soon and would scare her off. Good luck!

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Originally Posted by cheeky&sexy [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Some guys are good looking but dont know how to create sexual tension.. other guys are not so attractive but we see them as charasmatic because they know how to be sexually attractive.

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If you could explain why this happens and teach people (me, me!) what they're doing wrong, you'd be a millionaire overnight.

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Another thing about the friend zone is that we typically decide whether a guy is in the friend zone pretty quickly.. sounds like you've spent enough time with this girl that shes already decided what category you're in.

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But can't a girl change her mind? Couldn't she over the years develop feelings for someone she frequently sees around? It's not like I'm harassing her. As far as I know she doesn't even suspect I'm interested in her. I am very careful on that point. Only her intuition could have clued her in, but I don't know anything on that subject.

(On an off-topic note, cheeky&sexy, your quote box failed because you forgot to put a '/' before the end quote tag between the square brackets. You can still edit your post and fix that if you want).

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Originally Posted by ShellyZ [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

I don't see the point in pining after a woman who's already taken.

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I've known many kinds and types of girls (not all romantically, mind you) but I couldn't live with any of them. She's the one, she simply is. (Actually, it isn't simple at all). To say it with a cliché methaphor: "When I'm shopping for shoes and none of them fit, I'd rather walk barefoot than wear a pair that hurt my feet".

I've been alone for ages. Waiting for her or waiting for no-one is just another perception. I know this is not sensible and I'm sensible in every other way. To me, this makes sense. I could expalin, but I don't want to bore you. I feel like I'm in an AA meeting forcing everyone to hear my pathetic story. (Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your comments a lot).

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Originally Posted by listen not hear [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Aww--you're so sweet! How can she not like you?!

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I was expecting a sarcasting quote along those lines sooner or later, but when I read the rest of your post, you're not sarcastic at all. It's unbelievable how much of your situation coincides with mine. Ok, I wasn't abused at home. I'm sorry to hear you were. Also her current boyfriend is actually not a jerk as far as I can tell, which is probably bad news for me, although I'd hate for her to suffer. But I think you must know why I'm waiting for her, since you've experienced the same thing. I think you must really know how I feel...

Thanks for sharing this.

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So just be the good guy you are, friend or not. Just be there when she needs you and don't be afraid of taking a chance.

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I just can't take a chance now. I'm afraid that, just like you did in the beginning for your friend, she'd take polite steps to spare my feelings. I'm afraid she'd change classes or even quit altogether to avoid the awkwardness. That's why I keep this secret.

Warning: I didn't read any of the other responses.

The friend zone is something that happens when you show no romantic interest in a girl. You can't be her little puppy dog. You can't be her errand boy. Doing nice things for her while showing a romantic interest is key. If you act like a friend, you're going to be a friend.

Be flirty. Act fun.

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Originally Posted by Jolicoeur [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

If you could explain why this happens and teach people (me, me!) what they're doing wrong, you'd be a millionaire overnight.

But can't a girl change her mind? Couldn't she over the years develop feelings for someone she frequently sees around? It's not like I'm harassing her. As far as I know she doesn't even suspect I'm interested in her. I am very careful on that point. Only her intuition could have clued her in, but I don't know anything on that subject.

(On an off-topic note, cheeky&sexy, your quote box failed because you forgot to put a '/' before the end quote tag between the square brackets. You can still edit your post and fix that if you want).

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Oh thanks for letting me know, ill edit the post. Yeah i wasnt meaning to imply that your doing anything wrong.. just talking about guys and how the friend zone works in general. You need to show her your interested by flirting, winking and smiling always works so long as its kinda subtle. Maybe practice that in front of the mirror so you know what u look like doing it. If u dont think you can do it right then dont do that, but the wink and smile can be very sexy wen done correctly, but it also doesnt suit everyone. Eye contact is another big thing.. possibly the most important thing in creating this attraction. Make eye contact when you're talking and smile, be playful with her, and look confident. The way you walk and sit comes into play too, u have to do it confidently like you think your the man. Physical contact is another.. if you're flirting with her and she seems interested then invade her personal space a bit and see how she reacts. If you're sitting talking, lean in a bit closer, see if she blushes or backs off. These are all the generic things in making a girl sexually attracted to u that arent related to physical appearance.. the rest of it comes down to a girls personal taste in men.

In my experience from myself and girls i know.. girls never change their mind.. the only way a guy would come out of the friend zone is years later if he become significantly more attractive. You know like the guy in high school who was a dweeb that you see years later who has changed and is really hot and athletic now. I know its shallow but the really attractive guys are never going to be friend zoned and itll always be a love or hate situation based on their personality, same as guys are never going to friend zone a supermodel.. its just the way the world works.

I got a chance to practice what I preach, a couple of days ago.

Every three months, the company that I work for does some kind of fun event on a Friday afternoon to build morale and team spirit. This time it was bowling, and I got randomly assigned to the same team as the new girl at work. She started last Monday. She is average-looking, pale, bony and has a redneck first name, but she also has a nice smile and a great personality. Even though I normally avoid dating co-workers, I really like her, so I thought that I might as well flirt with her some and see where things go.

Because of all the co-workers around, I kept it low key... subtle enough that none of my co-workers noticed, but just enough that after an hour of talking, she mentioned her boyfriend a couple of times. I kept talking to her and kept it on a friendly level, but immediately dropped the idea of asking her out. The result is fine, I've got another work-friend (somebody I wouldn't hang out with away from the office), but I found out what I needed to know long before developing any kind of crush.

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Originally Posted by Cain [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Warning: I didn't read any of the other responses.

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Good idea to let us know. :-)

Your post concords with some of the other comments, thanks.

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Originally Posted by VincenzoG91 [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

I got a chance to practice what I preach, a couple of days ago.

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Thanks for sharing this. But what if this new girl ever breaks up with her current boyfriend? Would you be forever friend-branded, or could you get on the reserves-list? cheeky&sexy, what do you think about that?

I've seen her again a couple of days ago, just back from holiday. She was tanned a bit, and more beautifull than ever. But she seemed a bit distant also.

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Originally Posted by Jolicoeur [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Thanks for sharing this. But what if this new girl ever breaks up with her current boyfriend? Would you be forever friend-branded, or could you get on the reserves-list? cheeky&sexy, what do you think about that?

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No, I don't think I will be stuck in the friend zone if that happens, because with the flirtation early on, I made it clear what my interest and intentions were. Just today, I saw her looking at me a certain way... interested, evaluating, curious, something along those lines. There's a spark. But that's all it's going to be, because I'm not interested in a woman who already has a boyfriend. And we're co-workers. That's like two strikes in my book.