Kinda long, but I'm dying and need help.

Alright, my name is John, I'm 23 and I've been with my girlfriend for 4 1/2 years, at the year mark me and her had a kid, my daughter is now 3 1/2. It's one of those situations where two people got together and had a kid way too early, sad stuff I know but we've been trying to make the best of it. Well, after 4 1/2 years, I still cant convince her to do any of the things that any ordinary person does, such as: Get her Driver's License, get a job, or get a car. For the last year we've been living together, after I invited her to live with me in my apartment so we could make it alone, without our parents and such...seems good, except she cant drive, doesn't have a job, and doesn't have a car. And on top of it all, she wont clean the house...as a stay at home mom, ever.

So in perspective, I work full time, 40-42 hours a week, I get home to an un-clean house, and I'll just sit doing whatever stuff it is I want to do for an hour or so (Because I work third shift, nothing is open) and then I'll wake her up, and every 3-4 days we'll have to go shopping, so I have to get ready, wait for her and my daughter to get ready, then I go and waste an hour of my time walking around a store she could be at herself if she could at least drive. I get home, bring up all the groceries (third floor) and everything, take a shower, then for 40 mins after that, eat/do whatever, then we put my daughter down to nap, then I have an hour or two to do whatever, then I go to sleep for work at night. At no point during any of that time does she clean, once every 2 weeks or so she'll do the laundry, and maybe once a week use our DISHWASHER. So I'm essentially raising a 3 year old and an angsty 15 year old at 23...

So, here comes the confliction in the situation. Me and her really click, we can talk, we can cuddle and play in ways I think other women might not enjoy...I can really be myself around her. She's always loving and tells me nice things, and every 2-3 days she'll cook all nice for me/us, except when I walk into my house, it's dirty, it feels like she's purposely using me or something. I don't think she's aware of it though, and she keeps saying she loves me all the time, and I do love her as well, but she doesnt try...anything, ever. She doesn't try to clean the house, drive, job, car...so I moved out. I've been moved out for the last week or so, and I had a huge chat with her on sunday, mostly with me telling her all these things that I've said over the course of our relationship, except in a not-nice way as I've done our entire relationship.

The thing is, staying gone means to force her to her mom's house, which her mom is getting a divorce right now, her mom has 3 other kids. One is an 18-19 year old pothead with no job, the other is a 16 year old asshole who treats her like shit, and the last one is a 12 year old kid she adopted through a dead relative. She's got a full time job and is trying to save money to get her own place. The 18-19 year old got his license revoked. So between her mom, and her 3 OTHER kids, there is one car, and one driver. Do I tell my girlfriend: "Hey, after 5 years of me trying to get you to do these things for yourself, after constant warnings about how we'll have major problems if you don't do them, the problems are here, you shouldnt have treated me so badly." Or do I give her a month of living with her in this bitter situation to let her try to get one of those 3 things, car/job/license? It feels like she's using our daughter and this situation to keep me there and hurt me in ignorance of everything because it's pretty heavy leverage. I mean, I dont know if she's PURPOSELY doing that, but it sure as hell feels like it, I'm nearly trapped, but as I told her before, I'm not damn trapped, I dont want to be used, and none of this can keep me here.

So here in lies the qualm, should I pretty much room with her and see if she pulls her shit together, or do people never change? Do I stay and, now that my point has been made very sharply clear (During our conversation, I pretty much watched her spirit die, I dont think she can live in ignorance of the fact of any of this anymore) see if she can turn herself around in a month or so? Or let her hit rock bottom, feel like shit every day she wakes up as her mom will completely be pissed all the time when she has to do anything for her...it's been said that rock bottom is the only cure for some illness, but I don't know if I wanna put my daughter through that. Her mom has no rooms for her, no storage area, no extra people can drive, she cant drive, one job and one car between 5 people and a 3 year old...I need help.

I'm sorry for the long read, but it's a very messed up situation, and I can't make this decision very easily...please help me.

It sounds like her younger siblings are exactly the same.

Now you've bluntly said those things to her, what has her reply been?
You should only allow her back on the condition that she pulls her finger out of her ass and sorts her life out. Does your daughter attend daycare/nursery?
You need to spell it out for her that if she comes back things have to change.

Her reply was that she understands, and she doesnt know what she's been thinking. Like I said, I couldn't have been more clear. Her spirit broke in front of my face, and she apologized, and said that if I stay, those things will happen. But my concern is, is this just a lure? Is this honestly what she's going to do? Should I even give her the time of day since I mean, 4 1/2 years went by and no change, why am I thinking this time will be different? Maybe she just needs to use me for that much longer until she can be all done with me? Not sure...I'm leaning towards telling her it's not my issue what happens after I go, I'll pay my dues for my daughter, and have my visitation, however if I did get back with her, and those things DID change, I'd have no reason to leave. Still tho, is it worth the attempt? She does love me, and I love her, but she's hurt me for so long with this stuff, and even though she acts really nice and treats me nice, she doesnt at the same time with her actions and complete lack of attempting.

So...I think she knows, but I'm scared that she might not. And if I go back to give her that time, I might fall into the same pit of pathetic bending that I have been in. I have one friend here now that moved here from another state that will kick my ass if I let that happen, so I might be alright...however it's so freakin hard to decide what to do. So far from every outside source I've essentially been told that it doesnt seem right, almost like she's using me to be a completely worthless and lazy kid who refuses to learn anything and better herself, for any ones' sake. However I think she's just ignorant to those facts, and isn't doing it intentionally. And that's the hard part right there, trying to leave someone who is desperately clinging onto you with their affection.

And if things don't don't change, you need to assume full responsibility of your daughter, clearly her mother doesn't have it in her to be a mother.

Here's a different take - Instead of telling her what she is doing wrong and what you think she needs to do better, talk to her. Go to counseling together. Yes, she may not be doing things great for the relationship, but you enabled her to act this way all this time. And you have said twice that you saw her "spirit" break when you went off on her. If I were in a loving relationship and something I said made the other person's spirit break, I would feel horrible. But you almost sound like it is a good thing. She is a person, not a horse that needs to be broken and trained.

Work WITH her, not against her. Try couple's counseling. Do what is best for your daughter and your relationship and yourself. All three.

Good luck.

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Originally Posted by Invisiblue [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Her reply was that she understands, and she doesnt know what she's been thinking. Like I said, I couldn't have been more clear. Her spirit broke in front of my face, and she apologized, and said that if I stay, those things will happen. But my concern is, is this just a lure? Is this honestly what she's going to do? Should I even give her the time of day since I mean, 4 1/2 years went by and no change, why am I thinking this time will be different? Maybe she just needs to use me for that much longer until she can be all done with me? Not sure...I'm leaning towards telling her it's not my issue what happens after I go, I'll pay my dues for my daughter, and have my visitation, however if I did get back with her, and those things DID change, I'd have no reason to leave. Still tho, is it worth the attempt? She does love me, and I love her, but she's hurt me for so long with this stuff, and even though she acts really nice and treats me nice, she doesnt at the same time with her actions and complete lack of attempting.

So...I think she knows, but I'm scared that she might not. And if I go back to give her that time, I might fall into the same pit of pathetic bending that I have been in. I have one friend here now that moved here from another state that will kick my ass if I let that happen, so I might be alright...however it's so freakin hard to decide what to do. So far from every outside source I've essentially been told that it doesnt seem right, almost like she's using me to be a completely worthless and lazy kid who refuses to learn anything and better herself, for any ones' sake. However I think she's just ignorant to those facts, and isn't doing it intentionally. And that's the hard part right there, trying to leave someone who is desperately clinging onto you with their affection.

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Ok, get it out of your head, unless she is mentally disabled, she is full aware that she is using you, taking advantage of you, and "getting by" without much effort at all. This "light of hope" you have about here maybe being ignorant of this........it's ridiculous to think that. She's got your mind tangled between the affection she shows you and what she DOESN'T do. Words vs. action. I've been in a situation where a chick would say one thing and then do the exact opposite. After letting it go on for a while I just started to go with it like you have done for the past 4 1/2 years. I say it's worth giving her 1 FINAL shot, for the sake of your daughter, but after that, I'd be done with her.

She should start with a driver's license, then a job. Even if its part time, that would be extra income for the house and she can still be their for your daughter.

When I say I saw her spirit break, I saw her spirit of arguing my points break because she understood my points instead of arrogantly and insolently argue against them. And when it comes down to working with/against anyone, all I've done is work with her, giving her the benefit of all the doubts along the way of "yeah, I'll do it" "I know I need to do that, I'll do it for sure!" Then 3 years later nothing changed. That's what I meant with those statements. However it might boil down to me making her call her mom and telling her that if in a month-month 1/2 all her stuff isn't in order, I'm out. Also yeh....taking responsibility for my daughter is definitely top tier, except taking a daughter away from her mother isn't exactly the best thing to do to any kid. One guy I was talking to about this situation told me to tell her that I'm leaving, and if she cant get her stuff in order, I'm taking my daughter. And a by-product of that situation is that either a) her mom takes her in and does what is necessary or b) I get the kid and she's on her own to fix her life, then take my daughter back into her custody (Because as I was saying, I really don't think taking a kid away from their mother is the right thing to do in any circumstance.)

I'm thinking I might give this last month...but it could be my love for her talking.

Have you suggested counseling? Maybe having a third party work with the two of you might be the catalyst you need.

Ultimatums rarely, if ever, work. And if they do work, often they will just cause resentment down the line. Try to avoid an ultimatum unless you are ready to separate completely from her and raise your daughter on your own (regardless of your feelings about taking her away from her mother).

If the kids mother is a jobless, lazy, and directionless person such as your babies mother it would be a great idea to take her away from her mother. On the contrary, I believe a father plays a vital roll in a daughters life. Wouldn't want your daughter growing up with daddy issues, I've seen the result of that on many many occasions...

Agreed. However a father not being there at all is different, and is what causes those types of "daddy issues" whereas I'll still be there, just as my father was for me. And to be honest, I love my dad very much. I dont think love or issues should be a real issue. However I think I'll be going with the ultimatum, as much as they "rarely, if ever" work, it's most likely the wisest and most reasonable choice given the type of person my girlfriend is. Because at the end of a month, either things will be working out very well, or one of the two of us will hate one another (her hating me because of the ultimatum, me hating her because she failed me, even after my last ditch attempt to make us work) and then the decision will be pretty clear cut. It's denting my pride if I go back, but if our relationship will be mended from this dent, it's worth just one last dent to see if it works out I think...although this boat can take no more after that, this will either be a journey onto repair, or a journey to the bottom of the ocean. One of the two.

Update: She didnt do shit for a whole month. I gave her every condition, I gave her every option. So today instead of getting angry and in her face cause I'm sure that's how I'll feel at the time, I'm going to give her a one page note on what the situation is. It needs not be any longer than that, she knows every aspect of anything else I'd have to say. So there it is, she failed as hard as I had imagined. Shit sucks.

You should file for custody of your of your daughter immediately, unless you want her to grow up like her mother.

After I moved out for 3 days, every thing of imaginable possibility has been done. To an unequivocal end. She thought she was trying throughout the month, but as I told her, anyone who was trying for "the one" or the person they say they care about repeatedly, would try so god damn hard that it would be impossible for anyone to say they weren't trying. She said she was trying, just not to the ends of her total being because her world wasnt ripping apart, a giant chasm in the whole of the universe didnt rip above her head as it did when I left (not her words, but in essence, that's what it took for the shit to get done) and now that stuff is done, to no ends by which I could enter the house and instruct change, she is asking me to come back...

she said she understands she is the issue and she needs to change those things. She says this but I remain in fear that she will fail again if I go back, as if I'm suffering from an addiction to this security in her, in that house, in the family...I dont know though, to one end, she's never admitted she was at fault, and we never really talked before as we have in the last few days, hours and hours of talking with her are swaying my resolve. Hours of talking with my friend of 13 years (I'm 23....it's been a long ass time, and we're best friends, not just friends) and he is trying to do for me what I cant do and make me do this, leave entirely, stop trying to go back...but what the ****. Both sides make good arguments for the one side, but as soon as I'm around one side, that side takes over, I take that side to the other, to justify/inform them of what's going on in my head, then they put it back how it was prior. I feel like an idiot because I can't make this decision and I keep flipping my resolve back and forth.

Right now I have moved out, on the day I posted my update, but I am damn near going back. But WHY? Her argument is valid on so many levels, but so are my best friends' argument, just from a different perspective. I ****ing hate this shit. She's never said she was the issue before, and never "completely understood" me, so should I give it ANOTHER shot because of this new information is out there, and certain motivations and feelings have changed? Or is it just another lure, in which I'll have to leave again because it's back to the same pile of ****ing shitty rubble it gets to every time, I leave, and then I come back for some other stupid reasoning? How...why...what....the ****...-.-

Wow! I love how none of you guys have considered that she has post partum depression...

To be honest, I am the same as your gf. I don't have a license because the idea of driving on the roads with all the idiots out there scares the shit out of me. I can't maintain working for more than a few months. Housework shits me up the walls and I consider it a good day if I do the dishes and vacuum the lounge room.

When you describe her mum and the rest of her family, it honestly sounds like she is suffering depression.

If you love her, give her a chance. Tell her that you would like to go into counseling.

Ultimatums won't work with her.

She shows no signs of depression. After having our daughter every woman is required to take a test to try to validate post partum depression. Women take these tests without anyone around so no influences. She took the test and passed. She's always been lazy like this, I seriously don't think it has a lick to do with depression, just an egregious amount of laziness and ignorance of things. Why depression? I can't really see that as I've been severely depressed throughout my life, however not anymore. I realized the errors of my depression (no matter how unstable they were making me at the time) and now I'm alright and pretty secure in a lot of things. I know what depression looks like, and feels like, and she's not depressed. She's depressed at the MOMENT, but that's no excuse for the long term stuff prior to all of this.