A series of questions/comments to kick it off..

k...its my day off, so im cleaning and hittng the boards inbetween projects.

I'll forgive you this one time Nomas!

Chivalry.

Really it's not so much a subject of it's own as it is a part of something greater. This being that I'm a walking contradiction. I'm a devil's advocate. If you say, "Bush is an evil man with the unnecessary war and all", I say.."but what about the good in it? Sadam did some really bad stuff and some people really benefited from the torture he'd deal out", then if they say (which they do so much at my predominantly republican work environment) "Bush is a good man, liberating the Iraquis", I say "what of the ruins he left Iraq in? less people have a good quality of life now!" But that is a REAL can of worms..I'm not touching that on a forum with a twenty foot pole. Way too time consuming to type about politics.

So I see both sides of every issue and sometimes I wish I could be convinced for one side. ***Ooohh. realization I made just now..here goes:*** I guess it's because most of my life it's been that simple for me. The rules were laid out. They gave me a list of the Do's and Don't's. What's right and what's wrong were written down and there was no gray areas..pretty much black or white. So I was used to not having to think. I acted in accordance with the list. Now dealing with having to make up my own damn mind when I know there are two sides and goods and evils in both sides..that's new to me and a cause of some anxiety..but again, I am concious of this and deal with it. I like to think I got a good enough head on my shoulders to figure it out or at least be at peace with it.

So there was once this girl..HA, HA, HA..there's always a girl. Much as I want to steer clear of the guy/girl issue, inevitably it will show up eventually. Freud lives.

It is precisely this girl that made me want to not make an issue of the guy/girl conversations. "We're all just people." "I just don't like to think of people as guy or girl..just people". Something to that effect was one of her messages that stuck with me. You see, this girl was the liberal, going to the ultra liberal Ivy league school, the real thing when you talk left wing. She was the straw that broke the camel's back. As I had mentioned earlier..I was already receiving views from co-workers..one in particular..kinda my mentor here at work. He calls himself a religous "skeptic" because he doesn't declare himself a full blown atheist. He says: "Is there a God?? Probably not, but I'm not going to make the call. I'll find out when I die". At this time I was a pretty devout Catholic, but I was tolerant. I had an unwavering faith in my religion, but otherwise I considered myself a liberal...you could do what you choose as long as you don't hurt anybody.

Enter liberalgirl into the picture. Needless to say I was smitten from the start because of all the usual attractions that are unexplainable. When you are just drawn to someone and you cannot get enough of the person in the early stages when you don't even know the person. So this might have had a lot of weight in listening to her views. And we did the religion talk..which was the only thing I considered conservative about myself. Well, I don't need to point out all the points made, but to sum it up, I decided that maybe there was something to what she said. Certainly she was using logic to her points and whenever she asked to prove something that I believed based solely on faith..obviously I could only respond with faith. But actually, I remained Catholic throughout that period. Yeah, it wasn't until other factors came into play..like more research ([url]http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/why/legitimization.html[/url]) (if it's still up) and books like The Da Vinci Code (which is fiction and not a great story in my opinion, but with a lot of good facts I didn't know at the time) that made me less of an organized religion advocate. So that's another issue for me right now. I'm convinced I cannot now have faith in an organized religion as being "the way to salvation" but I cannot not believe in God. I'm too afraid. Is this because I've always been brought up this way or something inside all of us that reaches out for spirituality. If so, aren't spiritual alternatives such as Yoga, Tai Chi maybe the evolution of religion to excercise a person's spiritual needs?

The main significance of this girl is just that. Now I don't know. She said, "do you think these things for yourself or because you've always been taught this?". The answer is, I don't know. How could I know? I've only been in one situation, not the flip side. Like most of us, your parents have the most influence on your early upbringing and, so, in a lot of your customs, likes, dislikes, ways of doing things. Just think of most societies. Once you start getting up there in the years you will start hearing with more frequency "When are you going to get married?". It is like an unwritten law that everyone WILL get married. Why? Because it's "normal"? Because it's "what everyone does"? So that you are not lonely when you are old? Or just because we're not used to the idea of being alone, because a vast minority of us never get married and get along life just fine? Can you name 4 people that did this? If so, can you counter those four with 10 that got married at some point?

So if she was right about a couple of these things that made sense, was she right about everything else? Should people be treated as just people without defining gender roles. Why discriminate against a girl's ability to work on a shop just as good as any guy? Pro's on this side of the issue is, yeah, I'd be cool as hell to have a girl who's one of the guys. Kill her own spiders on the wall. Not be afraid to break a nail changing the oil on her vehicle. But maybe this sounds good because this would be an extremely rare girl by todays "standard girl" in lack of better terms.

But the other side is: there is a level of romanticism in me going on and treating my princess. Hold doors. Pay the bill at the restaurant. Change the tire in a snow storm while she waits inside the car, and when we get home she puts me in her arms and makes all the cold go away by her tender warm hands on my face.

Damn..what do I want??

So this was less about chivalry and more about..I don't know...dealing with ambiguity??

Sorry. I guess I haven't made up my mind on the matter. I know that when I go out with a girl I foot the bill and most of the time they're okay with that. Then I like to joke around with them as one of the guys, and here some are cool with it..sometimes probably amused at the treatment as they are probably not usually treated this way..and sometimes they are amused, but tell me that they're a little princess and I should be more gentle.

Each case is different, I guess.

Where do you stand on this?

IF this happens one more time Im gonna scream! i got this entire post written and the damn thing disappeared, I start over, get half way through it, and it did it again. LAST AND FINAL ATTEMPT, or this could be a sign Im not suppose to put my thoughts here.

Ok~Religons and Politics I dont touch on this forum. I was raised Baptist, but the older I got I developed my own beliefs, I do belive in God. I dont judge people, and dont feel its right for people to force feed their beliefs and or tell people theyre going to hell for not believing. Politics=just dont go there...

Onto to chivarly. Well, I have like zero experience in the dating world, was with one male for all of my 20's mistake number one, totally unhealthy but couldnt see it. NO bone in his body for acting "gentleman". So, didnt know it was an important or possibly important tool in the dating world. The last five years I had a few blind dates, turned out they were also lacking the chivalry thing. But I didnt think anything of it, it wasnt like I actually "looked" for these things, hell I had no idea what it was! All men(thats scary cause they all were in the late 30's) didnt act it.

Iron is the first MAN, real MAN, to show and be just that, A REAL MAN. He was the first man to open a door for me, car, restaruant, whatever kind of door he was opening it. NOW I took note...because I was in SHOCK! What in the hell did I do to deserve this kind of treatment? I couldnt believe this man was doing things for ME to do them, didnt even think about it, he just did it. OMG ok now you've got my attention. He pays for things, and heres where it gets a little hairy for me. I am one who likes to maintain balance in every aspect of my life. I want to share in everything we do, contribute to what it is were doing...financially, mentally, physically, you name it I want a part in it. He always says "ive got this, please put your money away." or whatever it is, when I offer, he tells me no. Ok~one part of me is like "hey I can contribute to this, Im no lyn dog, Im more than capable of pitching in."

I am a VERY independant woman. Became that way for a reason, bad ass relationship forced me to take a good hard look at myself. And I am that woman who is the type you can hang out with and watch football(hard core packer fan) drink beer, and eat wings! And at the same time dress like a woman. Last year I met a guy who totally went nuts for me, because hed never met a woman with my personalty traits, the combinations. (oh ok...whatever) but we are very great friends, and I understand why now he said this...Thats a flip for you Freddie!

So how do I keep my independance, balance, and the chivarly all wrapped up in a nice bow? Hmmmm...well I do things for myself still. I do man things around the house, laid my own sod last year, painted my house, changed my own oil. I was hell bent in learning things to be self sufficient and NOT reliant on a man for ANYTHING.

Here I am keeping my scales or trying to keep my scales as level as possible and once in awhile my Independance weighs more. And to add to it, I cant help but to always want to give back! Its a natural tendency to want to make my partner feel like hes special too. Because for the first time in my life, I feel extremely special, the treatment I receive outweighs gold! Its unbelievable to me, that someone actually believes and acts the part of a REAL MAN, and Im lucky enough to exerience this with someone very special...hence give MORE!

I appreciate those little things that most guys dont do, the chivarly man, amongst a man who acts and is this role, well, hes a true hero in my book. And I value and respect him with the highest amount of there possibly can be...

Chivalry for me, as unimportant to me as it was in my 20's, has become something extremely dear and treasured. I will not take it for granted when things are done for me, but look to him as someone whom I truly respect and adore for being the man he is! Its a wonderful thing!

First of all, I'm happy for you. You sound really happy with your relationship. I wish everyone could find such bliss and hold on to it.

Secondly, I conclude that you are Pro-chivalry,..all the while not beeing too delicate to use your two hands for useful purposes of manual labor. A nice combo.

It's tougher for a guy, though, to guess what a girl will like. Chivalry is always the safer bet, though. Can't go wrong there..unless the girl is younger and you come off as a square. But this same girl..she never once complained about me opening doors or paying bills...she just made the comment about equal treatment.

Hey..did you notice I put up a couple of posts on threads OTHER than this one? I'm starting to jump in there. Good for me!..**Pat on the back**.

Thanks Nomas, I am happy. And yes, I guess you could say Im for chivarly, ONLY because I now recieve it yet like your girl friend says "equal treatment" Im in the middle!

Younger gals may find it odd, like its old school behavior, but they might not yet understand it, but as they get older, they will appreciate it and respect the mans actions.

Yea I noticed youre posting around...Billy's thread. Usually he's all over the boards on a daily basis, that was a first for him to ask for advice in dating. Anyway~hope youre able to find some of other things of interest on here! Alot of the memebers arent around at the moment, dont know whats going on, my bet, cause its blah right now!

Maybe they're on vacation.

which is where my booties going tomorrow morning! wahoo, well its starts tonight tho! :sinister:

oh my gosh girlfriend! Jealous I am!!!

Have a GREAT time!!!! ;)