Shhh. Don't tell Sooky my evil plans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigabitch [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
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Shhh. Don't tell Sooky my evil plans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigabitch [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Definitions of Evil-
Morally wrong.
Causes harm or injury.
Characterised by anger or spite.
Causes suffering or destruction
I didn’t say “evil” always referred to using brute force. Evil deeds can also be sneaky. Devious people can still be morally wrong and cause suffering/destruction without resorting to brute force directly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frasbee [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Where’s the evidence that the Emperor wanted peace? Didn’t he destroy a whole planet for essentially no reason? Sounds pretty evil to me. I’d say ultimately he wasn't so interested in peace, but more in gaining power. And he deliberately wiped out all the people who'd oppose him (Jedi, Alliance etc), so that he could achieve total power.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frasbee [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I don’t think everybody wants peace. I think some just want war to destabilise societies and make them easier to dominate/control. I’d say its the control that so called "evil" people seek and not peace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frasbee [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Everyone wants to be in control, but some are willing to do whatever it takes (sacrifice lives etc) to gain this power and control.The more evil a person is, the more harm/suffering they are willing to inflict in order to get control.
I don’t think there is such a thing as pure “evil” in the way you seem to define it. I'd say most of the time peoples end intentions are good, or at least so they think. EG - Maybe the Emperor truly believed that in some way his dominance would bring an overall order to the Universe, and that once he achieved power he could maintain this order. However, by inflicting suffering on others to essentially achieve his own desires (desires for control and power) I’d say the Emperor should be defined as evil. As the Dark Side leads to anger and suffering I’d also say that the Dark Side should be defined as evil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frasbee [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I agree that the Light Side is also questionable, as it can cause harm and suffering too. However, generally the Light Side acts to try and reduce harm and suffering, and is certainly self-less compared to the selfish nature of the Dark Side. The Dark Side relies on emotions of anger and fear, but the Light Side seeks to avoid these emotions. So I'd say "evil" is a relative thing, and compared to the Light Side the Dark Side is definitely evil.
Mmm... So… you have evil plans… interesting…Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathias [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
What more evidence do you need than the Emperor simply stating that he wanted peace? Would you say that President Bush is evil? He definitely fits the criteria you laid as as what you defined as "evil" acts as does any leader who has gone to war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sooky [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
The emperor didn't kill for the sake of killing or the sake of doing "bad". Like I said, it was all a means to achieve a goal. The Light Side wanted to stay in power, so what did they do? They hunted down the Sith almost into extinction. Their ideology may differ but their methods were quite similar.
Not to mention the "Light" Side didn't only avoid emotions of anger or fear, but virtually almost all emotion at all. They saw things in black and white. In a sense they were the "conservatives" of the Star Wars universe.
The problem with either ideology is that they are both far too extreme. They were both highly intolerant of eachother, both used violence as a means to achieve or hold power. One is all about virtually having no emotion, to one that embraces self destructive emotions.
I know I may take some hits for bein' a dork, but a Star Wars game I played really opened my eyes as to what it meant to be part of the "dark side". It went much deeper than, "bad totalitarian guy killing everything in a quest for power" vs "good noble socialist guy saving the galaxy" and more into how humans behave and how either side will manipulate others to achieve what they want to achieve.
So, can it be safely said that the Light Side does evil things to achieve it's noble goals? Does the end really justify the means?Quote:
I agree that the Light Side is also questionable, as it can cause harm and suffering too.
Exactly.
Honestly, I think you're looking too far into it, Fras. George Lucas is a wholly inept moron and Star Wars is a fluke. I mean, Howard the Duck... that's the stuff Lucas comes up with. All that really intriguing stuff you mention is the result of sloppy story-telling. Boba Fett? Nothing more than a panzy bit character, but Lucas' awful dialogue made him out to be a badass. Vader should have force-curbed him for not watching his mouth.
Isn't it amusing that a seemingly innocuous thread such as this becomes a Star Wars debate?
It's not about the movies.
The movies are dumb in how shallow they are.
The games I've played are so much better, ironically more relevant to current society.
And is the "intriguing" things I mentioned the result of "sloppy story telling", I really don't understand that statement.
Does Raiders of the Lost Ark ring a bell? How about American Graffiti?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gribble
SMACK!
Don't make me get out the peanut butter.
Actually.
I think I could safely say that all of us here do feel that the means can be justified so long as we're satisfied with the end product and we were done no personal harm.
Why? Because life goes on and most people don't dwell on how they got where they are.
Yeah, but if you're leading on a scale of that proportion you probably wouldn't be the one who's personally doing the killing, the raping, the destroying. You turn a blind eye.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meri [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Do you think Leaders really know what their subordinates are up to?
Hell no.
Just get the job done, if I don't see it, and if I won't hear about it, then it didn't happen.
If you've ever been in a leadership position, it's pretty easy to assume this kind of responsibility.
If you've ever been in a subordinate position, it's pretty easy to take on that kind of mentality. What the boss don't know can't hurt him right?
You're looking on too great a scale.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meri [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I'll simplify it for you, bring it down to the real world, the world we deal with.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're no Angel.
Last year in AmeriCorps I had this TeamLeader, he was a pretty lax guy but was strict with the rules.
If I asked him "Hey Neal, is it okay if I just take the van by myself and grab somethin' from the store?" Now according to the rules you have to have at least 2 people driving the van, of course he'd say no, because now he would officially be liable for any accident I got into and held accountable for the fact I didn't have somebody sitting shotgun.
So say I'm on a project where our van is, I don't know, needs to be backed up, or moved 5 feet, and all my team mates are elsewhere. Do I tell the project sponsor "No, I can't move the van, it's against the rules for me to do so by myself."? **** no, I'm not a ****in' pussy, and I ain't stupid either. And I know if I ask my TL if it's okay just this once he'll say "no", and if he says "no" and I do it, then I'm directly disobeying him which will automatically result in some form or punishment. So I just do it, and get the job done, without mentioning any of that to my TL.
You see how innocent that is?
Now that is just one little scenario out of many that occurred during my 10 months of service. I knew, my teammates knew, even Neal knew, if you ask him if you could do something that you know you're not supposed to do, he has to say no. But if you just do it, and he doesn't know about it, you're golden. If he does know, or sees you do it, he can reprimand you (more likely if it is in public) or let it pass (because it simply isn't worth creating an issue over).
Ever leave work early?
Or come in half an hour early for that much more extra pay?
Ever break procedure for a shortcut that you know will get your job done faster?
Ever just toss the manual aside and do it your way?
I know you and every other person how here has had the battle between procedure and common sense.
As simple and silly as that.
That kind of mentality isn't only reserved for the General and his grunts.
You gotta be real about these things, that's simply how the world works whether you consider it morally wrong or not.
Ok, so the Emperor said he wanted peace… so… *shrugs shoulders* and? He destroyed an entire planet!!! If that’s not evil I don’t know what is. And YES I would totally agree. By definition George Bush is evil! However, he’s also an idiot, and so you have to forgive him for some of his evilness. Of course, he’s not as evil as the Emperor, nowhere near, and like I said, evil is relative. In fact all leaders that go to war have to be somewhat evil. I think what we are really arguing about here is the definition of evil and not whether the Dark Side is evil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frasbee [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Using my definition of evil, the one I found in the Collins English Dictionary (possibly laughable, I'm not sure of its reputation), evil does not mean killing for the sake of killing, but simply causing harm/ suffering… blah..blah… blah. As a result, just because you kill people to achieve a goal, doesn’t mean its not evil. Using that thought process, I could murder you to prevent you further arguing against my views and thus bringing peace to this thread, but the act of murdering you would still be evil. Even though I'm doing it to achieve a goal, (in my mind even a noble goal of bringing peace) its still an "evil" act.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frasbee [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I agree that yes both sides are evil, as both used violence to achieve their goals. However, like I said, evil is relative and if you look at all the facts the Light Side is clearly less evil than the Dark Side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frasbee [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Yeah, history is definitely written by the victors too. When someone wins they get to tell their side of the story and make their opponent seem more evil then them, when in fact both sides are usually equally guilty and evil. This would be true in the case of Star Wars except that its a story and is written to favour the Light Side. Ok I confess I haven't read the books, but judging by the films (and I'm guessing they at least vaguely resemble the books) the Light Side is definitely favoured as the less evil side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frasbee [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Yeap the Light Side certainly does evil things to achieve its goals, but “avoiding emotion” gives them a much clearer perspective then someone who is strongly influenced by his emotions of anger and hate like the Emperor. Surely you must agree with me there at least? The Light Side of the force is relatively speaking good compared to the Dark Side. Therefore the Dark Side is relatively speaking more evil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frasbee [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I apologise, seems I’ve let my selfish desires for posting power take over my emotional suppressing philosophy once again. But the hermit, TV-watching life style can get boring at times and debating random nonsense is a nice cheap form of excitement. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gribble [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Is terrible really. No doubt I’ll be banned sooner or later. Probably sooner judging from this crap. :P
If I'm not mistaken, Spielberg directed Raiders of the Lost Ark. Georgie-boy just made the original character sketch. And if you look at Star Wars, the second two movies were directed by other people and are often regarded as far superior to the original, which Lucas directed himself. Never watched American Graffiti, so I can't comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigabitch [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Sweet no one wants to kiss me.
Dam no one wants to kiss me.
Sweet no one wants to kiss me.
Dam no one wants to kiss me.
Sweet no one wants to kiss me.
Dam no one wants to kiss me.
Sweet no one wants to kiss me.
Dam no one wants to kiss me.
Sweet no one wants to kiss me.
Dam no one wants to kiss me.
He won an Academy Award for Best Director and another one for Best Writing for that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gribble
:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Meri [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
(Kisses Meri)
I would definately kiss Gigabitch... She's been a lot of help!
Hey, we both like the book 1984. That definitely makes you kiss worthy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meri [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
i loved that book!
i figured that's where your alias came from, but i thought maybe you had made it up because you live in the UK(?) but you are asian
It was Knights of the Old wasn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Frasbee [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Yes it was, but more the second one than the first.Quote:
It was Knights of the Old wasn't it?
I stated that you were not an angel, and you agreed so as a result I am right. (Are you just trying to argue every point I have to make me out to be the wrong one? 'Cause with a statement like that it sure seems so.)Quote:
You're wrong.
I'm not an angel, but I'm far from what you've described.
Maybe I'm malicious, maybe I'm devious, maybe I'm evil, along with the rest of American citizens, but I would think such simple deviance could be found across borders, you seem to live in some kind of Utopia if you have never participated in like deviant behavior.Quote:
This type of behaviour disguists me.
My age is of little relevance.Quote:
I'll totally choke laughing.
You're comparing this, with the murder, the destroying a planet from the Dark side? This is your comparison of "getting the job done" and "justified means for the noble goal"?!
What you've just desribed are formalities that don't matter, that are even a bother priscribed to an over-diligenced bureaucrat.
Doing something wrong and hurting people, having laws that prevent this is not just bureucracy making the world more complicated without a reason.
How old are you anyway?!
You are missing my point completely. You're stepping back and looking at the big picture with an idealistic point of view which ironically is making you more short sighted. Let's look into military scenarios where "evil" is most easily found...
When a grunt kills an innocent, tortures an in-mate, opens fire on a harmless civilian vehicle, do you think he/she sitting there wondering "man, I wonder how this will be perceived on the news" or "from the point of view of those who are occupied, am I the evil doer?" In the heat of the moment, scared out of his/her wits, pumped up on adrenaline? I would think not.
You have a job, it's how you make a living, you do what you have to do to retain your job. If your boss says "guard this post", you are put in a potentially life threatening situation, it not only comes down to the act of guarding your post so much as it is guarding your life.
That changes things.
When your commanding officer says that he/she wants information from a prisoner or inmate, do you think he/she gonna do the dirty work themself?
Doubt it.
Now you have a subordinate who is given the task of extracting information from a possibly stubborn inmate. I would assume anybody in that position who's more worried about their job and reputation may set their "normal" moral standards aside to do what they must to complete their assignment.
Now, I can try to justify why they're doing what they're doing, "it's for the greater good" "they save more by making one or two suffer" and all that bullshit. But looking through the eyes of the doer, that's may not even be the shit they're thinking about.
Now if you want to sit up on your high horse and tell me I'm wrong, tell me that everything I've just presented is "wrong, disgusting, immoral" so be it.
But that's the world around both you and me.
And if you don't realize that, then you are heavily sheltered in whatever community you happen to live in.
You don't have to like it, you don't have to agree with it, but in my opinion, people should be aware of it. One must understand the formula before they are to solve the problem.
[url]http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=eurasian[/url]Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogle [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Mum = Asian
Father = European
Are you actually getting pissed off over a Star Wars discussion?
I respect you enough to hear out your side, I find it very offensive that you will not return that respect. I do not believe the medium is grounds for an excuse to just abandon the conversation. Would you hang up on me if it were over the phone? Or walk away if it were in person? Does that not reveal something of one's character?Quote:
To be completely honest, I don't feel like reading everything you've written, knowing in advance that we wouldn't see eye to eye, actually, far from it.
Good to see you are so much greater a judge of character. And one again, you're taking to an elitist attitude, an attitude that solves nothing.Quote:
I'm not idealistic, far from it, but I've already told you you were a bad judge of character. Me living somewhere else has nothing to do with anything, actually, living in Croatia instead of America can only make me more realistic.
Because if I was an 8 year old that would be impressive?Quote:
Your age is of great significance.
And if I was a 40 year old it would be juvenile?
I had never said I was okay with it, please quote me if I did so I can go back and correct it because those are not, and never were my sentiments. Once again...elitist attitude...Quote:
And the part about me being an angel - for today's standards I am an angel, and for your type of behaviour as well (since you're ok with the stuff I definetely am not).
I never said that I was "golden boy". By "golden" I meant you're good to go, have nothing to worry about, it's a non-issue.Quote:
But if you just do it, and he doesn't know about it, you're golden.
Quote:
I said quite politely* I didn't feel like talking or discussing. Do you like making people to do what you want to do, without respecting other people's wishes and needs?
You already took it upon yourself to end the conversation without consulting your opponent.Quote:
And let's just end this unfriutful conversation, shall we? Damn, I know I will.
I said:
You said:Quote:
I had never said I was okay with it, please quote me if I did so I can go back and correct it because those are not, and never were my sentiments. Once again...elitist attitude...
I said:Quote:
You spoke of "the way things are done in the army".
I'm careful about the words that come out of my "mouth".Quote:
Let's look into military scenarios where "evil" is most easily found...
No, but these can be:Quote:
Hakuna matata can hardly be called as an elitist attitude.
Quote:
I'm not idealistic, far from it, but I've already told you you were a bad judge of character.
Quote:
living in Croatia instead of America can only make me more realistic.
(this being a basis to prejudge)Quote:
Your age is of great significance.
Quote:
Either way, don't care.
Quote:
I won't bug you anymore about this. It's not important anyway.
Quote:
Since I always use a plastic tree, that's wrong.
Quote:
About hunting being barbaric - it is barbaric.
These prejudices and generalizations as can be seen here are vast.Quote:
I find it sickening..I find it sickening to enjoy killing innocent creatures. Ok, fine, you eat them, I eat them..you don't need to enjoy in hunting, how can you? Hell there's no need for hunting anymore!
in her profile, it states that she is unemployed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frasbee [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Regardless of your age, you have a great deal to learn about respecting other people and their views. Telling somebody they are inferior does not count as being respectful.
Your statements have been little more than generalizations, insults, prejudicial, immature and rude.
If you're gonna say something and state it as a "fact" back it up or shut up because nobody needs to be told their problems aren't as important as yours.
You're done? Great.
Because I'm done with you, I will not bestow respect upon somebody who will not respect me.
Elaborate pleaseQuote:
Originally Posted by Meri [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
You have a very snobbish attitude, Meri. Your writing in general leaves that impression, but normally I'd give you the benefit of a doubt and assume it isn't intentional. However, you seem to end every argument with, "Oh well, I don't care what you think. Buh-bye! Bitch-ass turdmeister." Okay... I added that last bit myself, but the rest stands. And you end your tirade by calling him an idiot. I'm too lazy to read this mess, but I don't believe he ever resorted to name calling.
I'd kiss you, Meri.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aegis [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Oh, come on! She's been combative as hell since she got here. She seems to get off on pissing as many people off as she possibly can, and that "I just want to chat casually" statement is just bullshit.
Meri, please hold yourself more accountable, not less. You like to fight.
She doesn't have to run off! This whole Eeyore thing with, "Well, I'll just slink off now......okay I'm really going now........I'll bet you won't miss me....." is just too annoying.
I like Meri just fine, fighting and all, but if she's gonna go she should just go without this Post of Reckoning crap.
That really surprises me about you. I imagine you being as acerbic and suspicious as I am IRL. Guess you're not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aegis [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I'm known for being the "I told you so" girl, because I usually see shit coming from a mile away.
I want to kiss everyone on LF who has given me excellent advice while being on this forum!! You are all amazing.:love:
Ellyn is a pro. Gigabitch is perfect. Henry is awesome. Let's not forget TDurden & Vashti of course. Actually I don't remember ALL the names. But you are not forgotten!! "blowing kisses towards you all".
You've all been a big help! Thank you very much. Keep up the good work!!
Well i wouldn't know who i should throw kisses at.. Well maybe i can make up my mind once i have been on these forums for some time ;)
Kiss my special bush.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taranee [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I love your evil ass.Quote:
Originally Posted by King Zarathu [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
i wanna kiss all of you.
some of you i'd like to go for a feel too...
Ooo! She's fiesty today!
SMACK! Bitch.
I'm going to make a porn movie with Eurasian now, so I have no more time for Zarathu.
I win.
::starts to remark LF territory with urine::