Health Care Reform a Welcome Change

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Originally Posted by NeoSeminole [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

you've never worked with a PA. They don't even have them in Canada, and yet you're putting down a profession you know nothing about? Cute.. Here's your homework assignment for the day - read up about PAs, what they do, and their role in the health care team. I look forward to hearing what you've learned ;)

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There you go again, making assumptions. Stupid Tractor. :D

I lived in the US for almost a decade. I saw PAs all the time at my medicos office. They were pretty much useless, in the end the doc had to vet everything they were doing. The training is minimal. You don't require anything beyond a two year post-bachelor training. Yourself for example: you have a degree in kinesiology, right? How many patients did you see during your undergrad? Compare that to a 4-year+ MD or a 3 - 4 year RN who then gets 2-4 more years training to become a RNP.

So yes, a PA is actually less trained than a nurse. Thanks for pointing that out. :)

Lol every thread that involves Indi and Neo has explosions, dynamite, and guerilla warfare.

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Originally Posted by MVPlaya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

If that is how you view healthcare, the problem is then that healthcare is left to businesses to take care of. Your arguments are great arguments for a public option.

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I think you can always pass legislation to increase regulation. Ultimately, I'm probably wrong though in that healthcare will never get to where you want it to be if we left it alone to the insurance companies. You sound like Krugman again (who is not exactly delightful for me to read but enlightening nonetheless).

But we had this debate already MVP - You're a champion of the little guy and I don't think we should be milking the rich to help the poor.

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Originally Posted by Starbuck

If this is not an argument for health care reform, I don't know what is.

[URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/20/health/20pregnant.html"]http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/20/health/20pregnant.html[/URL]

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The insurance company is covering 80% of a million+ dollars. What more do you want from them? You people think money grows on trees. How about instead of making healthcare more affordable by giving free money to everyone (which would ultimately make it cost even more), why not think of a practical solution like cutting costs or providing an incentive for more people to become doctors, PAS, and nurses.

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Originally Posted by Sanctuary [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Lol every thread that involves Indi and Neo has explosions, dynamite, and guerilla warfare.

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Neo wishes his GF was like me (a younger me, of course). That's why. :D

IndiReloaded says:

"There you go again, making assumptions. Stupid Tractor."

there you go again, running away from the main issue in my post. Silly coward. So you concede that socialized health care in the US wouldn't work without PAs?

"I lived in the US for almost a decade. I saw PAs all the time at my medicos office. They were pretty much useless, in the end the doc had to vet everything they were doing. The training is minimal. You don't require anything beyond a two year post-bachelor training."

I'm not sure what kind of PAs you 'worked with' but they probably only had bachelor's degrees in clinical medical science. The recent standard has become for students to have a master's degree in order to take the PANCE. Without it, you cannot become a PA. I would hardly call a master's degree "minimal" training. Furthermore, PAs who wish to specialize have the option of completing a residency which would bestow upon them a post-graduate degree.

"Yourself for example: you have a degree in kinesiology, right? How many patients did you see during your undergrad? Compare that to a 4-year+ MD or a 3 - 4 year RN who then gets 2-4 more years training to become a RNP."

your comparison sucks big, donkey d*ck. Why are you comparing an undergrad student to a medical doctor who finished school? Here's an idea: you seem to think DoesntMatter is destined for medical school. Why don't you ask him how many patients he's treated while in college. I'm sure the number won't be much different than the number of patients I saw while volunteering in the ER throughout college. I will have a whole year of clinical rotations to see patients and gain practical experience during the 2nd half of PA school.

"So yes, a PA is actually less trained than a nurse. Thanks for pointing that out."

tsk tsk, I see you didn't do your homework assignment. Try again ;)

Sanctuary says:

"why not think of a practical solution like cutting costs or providing an incentive for more people to become doctors, PAS, and nurses."

ahh, someone who gets it! What the US needs is more health practitioners in primary care to handle the growing population and impending baby-boomers who will turn to health care to maintain their active lifestyles. Government incentives would encourage more physicians, PAs, and nurse practitioners to fill these positions.

Neo you said I didn't have experience with PAs. You are incorrect. I lived in the US for 10 years.

Your comment about my comparision ignores nurses. What about their training Neo?

And yes, a Master's is typically only two years. That's not a lot of experience time, especially if your undergrad is a non-clinical degree. Nurses who get an RNP do 3 or 4 years (clinic work in the first month of study usually) plus the masters or doctorate you describe.

But, as I said, this must be the reason why RNP can practice on their own and PAs cannot. Shrug.

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Originally Posted by NeoSeminole [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Sanctuary says:

"why not think of a practical solution like cutting costs or providing an incentive for more people to become doctors, PAS, and nurses."

ahh, someone who gets it! What the US needs is more health practitioners in primary care to handle the growing population and impending baby-boomers who will turn to health care to maintain their active lifestyles. Government incentives would encourage more physicians, PAs, and nurse practitioners to fill these positions.

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I agree with more support. I just think its wasteful to create a new professional designation for something that is basically a nursing equivalent. I'm for more generalists. What's wrong with doctors and assistants? Call nurses, PA assistants if it means more men will enter the profession--I couldn't care less.

But, show me what a PA can do that a RNP cannot (RNP = nurse practictioner), I'm prepared to be wrong.

IndiReloaded says:

"Neo you said I didn't have experience with PAs. You are incorrect. I lived in the US for 10 years."

I'm pretty sure I read a post from you where you said you hadn't worked with a PA, which explains your attempts to downplay their importance. Also, you still haven't explicitly said you worked with a PA - only that you worked in the same building as them.

"Your comment about my comparision ignores nurses. What about their training Neo?"

what about their training?

"And yes, a Master's is typically only two years. That's not a lot of experience time, especially if your undergrad is a non-clinical degree. Nurses who get an RNP do 3 or 4 years (clinic work in the first month of study usually) plus the masters or doctorate you describe."

I still fail to see any logic in your argument. The same thing can be said about students in medical school. Ask DoesntMatter how many years he's been working as a nurse or how many patients he's treated while in college. In the end, it doesn't matter since clinical experience is built into the program (whether it be PA school or medical school) and your certification upon graduation is awarded based on competency.

"But, as I said, this must be the reason why RNP can practice on their own and PAs cannot. Shrug."

hahahaha

IndiReloaded says:

"I agree with more support. I just think its wasteful to create a new professional designation for something that is basically a nursing equivalent. I'm for more generalists. What's wrong with doctors and assistants? Call nurses, PA assistants if it means more men will enter the profession--I couldn't care less."

physician assistants are trained in the medical model (same as physicians) while NP's are trained in the nursing model. Two totally different professions. Again, do your homework. So far you've been wrong several times when speaking out about PAs. I'm done correcting you. From here on out, I'll let you continue to make an ass out of yourself by pretending to be an authority on a subject you obviously know nothing about.

IndiReloaded says:

"Neo wishes his GF was like me (a younger me, of course). That's why."

if I wanted a girlfriend like you, I would just buy a noisy parrot and walk around with it on my shoulder.

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Originally Posted by Sanctuary [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

The insurance company is covering 80% of a million+ dollars. What more do you want from them? You people think money grows on trees. How about instead of making healthcare more affordable by giving free money to everyone (which would ultimately make it cost even more), why not think of a practical solution like cutting costs or providing an incentive for more people to become doctors, PAS, and nurses.

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Williams S. Burroughs wrote: "There are no honorable bargains involving exchange of qualitative merchandise like souls for quantitative merchandise like time and money."

Insurance companies exist to make a profit. Profit is not a moral argument. My argument is that people should not suffer because of the insane cost of healthcare. And now yours seems to be that it's perfectly justified to let them suffer so that insurance companies can continue to make profit. That's what you're saying basically.

I don't think these are comparable arguments since mine is a moral one and yours is a financial one. They're on completely different planes of debate and even if they were, I seriously doubt we'd end up seeing eye-to-eye.

Oh, and incidentally, money is printed on cotton and cotton grows on trees. (well, technically a bush, but close enough).

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Originally Posted by Sanctuary [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

But we had this debate already MVP - You're a champion of the little guy and I don't think we should be milking the rich to help the poor.

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Yet we milk the poor to help the rich all the time. Government contracts, government subsidies, hell, the government pays for the poor so that they can get a high school education which guarantees businesses a better work force to draw employees from. I think what you're missing is that someone is getting milked either way.

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Originally Posted by NeoSeminole [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

IndiReloaded says:

"Neo you said I didn't have experience with PAs. You are incorrect. I lived in the US for 10 years."

I'm pretty sure I read a post from you where you said you hadn't worked with a PA, which explains your attempts to downplay their importance. Also, you still haven't explicitly said you worked with a PA - only that you worked in the same building as them.

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Nope, wrong again. Reading comprehension will be necessary for you to not hurt patients. Go find my post I'm not going to do your work for you.

:D

all this time I thought you were studing to be a personal assistant.

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Originally Posted by NeoSeminole [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

IndiReloaded says:

"I agree with more support. I just think its wasteful to create a new professional designation for something that is basically a nursing equivalent. I'm for more generalists. What's wrong with doctors and assistants? Call nurses, PA assistants if it means more men will enter the profession--I couldn't care less."

physician assistants are trained in the medical model (same as physicians) while NP's are trained in the nursing model. Two totally different professions. Again, do your homework. So far you've been wrong several times when speaking out about PAs. I'm done correcting you. From here on out, I'll let you continue to make an ass out of yourself by pretending to be an authority on a subject you obviously know nothing about.

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Okay so what you are saying is you are a wannbe doctor b/c you weren't smart enough to go the whole way? Okay. I get it now. It makes perfect sense considering your 'potential' or lack of. :D

So, from a patient perspective, what is it you can do that a nurse practioner cannot? Nothing, far as I've read and experienced. With the difference being an RNP can practice without having to be looked after by a doctor to make sure you don't screw up.