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unplanned was 19 young and dumb wasnt planning on having children yet. thats how you can have an unplanned pregnancy. wasnt thinking about the consequences.Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertz [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Thanks for the welcome :)Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
It's an interesting thread and people are bringing in a lot of different experiences. Which is part of the problem, things like not using a condom we can all relate to but differences in welfare, taxes, etc give very different outcomes depending on where we live.
Wow, where to begin.
Firstly, I'm not sure if I want to keep posting in such a judgemental forum! Unless people are going to read complete posts.
What I mean by justifiably sit at home and focus on my boy, is my boy has extra needs. It would be very easy for me to choose to focus on nothing but him and apply for more government handouts. I choose not too. I personally think that is taking responsibility. I seriously do not see what Cams problem is.
And for people comparing me to young mums with heaps of kids being a drain on society, get off your high horses! I have ONE child. Just one. And for everyone else that is comparing me to mums of ASD kids that work more hours than I do, I am stoked those women have that much strength and energy. I am doing what I have to for my son and my family and I honestly don't see why anyone should have a problem with that.
*sigh* I was able to laugh at myself when Charlie Boy II (I think it was him anyway) pulled out the offending line of text and said it made him lol. I can acknowledge I was stupid. I am on the pill now, and behaving responsibly so I really do not think I should be taken to task over this anymore.
You want to cut her ovaries out. I suggest giving her children away to someone who actually CAN afford to look after them. And teach them good work ethic. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by qwertz [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
So? Lots of people have kids with extra needs that don't expect society to pay for them. My son is exceptionally bright. Does that mean I get to apply for a government grant so he can get extra curricular stimulation? I mean, really, that would be a MUCH better investment of public money since chances are high he will be part of that 10% of high-earning taxpayers.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaidenMinx [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
BTW, don't take this personally. Clearly you learned your lesson. But you haven't really thought through the consequences of your attitude. Think: if every teenager saw that her peer is working her ass off paying for her teen pregnancy, maybe more of them would decide to keep their legs closed until they were ready for the potential consequences.
I'm trying not to take this personally. What makes it difficult is the amount of assumptions being made.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
If you have a gifted child and you are eligible for any assistance to give him the best chance for getting ahead and doing well (I know quite a few very high IQ people that have chosen not to seek out high paying jobs, they know that money doesn't buy happiness) I personally see no problem seeking the asssistance.(I also would like to point out know that 80% of the people working for NASA are somewhere on the Autism spectrum so my sons disability doesn't mean he won't be high income earner)
Maybe this is the crux of the point where opinions differ (thankyou for acknowledging that I have learnt my lesson, I think that was one of the things getting to me), if the government is handing out money and you are eligible, why shouldn't you take it? The are finacial bracket cut off points and other requirements in place to help make sure the system isn't abused. Sure these measures are not fail safes, though if you are doing everything right, where is the problem in seeking assistance? The average therapy appt for a disable child is up to $300 an hour. Some kids needs therapies many times a week, then you have to take into account the hours that the parents have to put into implementing the therapies. The assistance I get from the government now is to prevent my son from being a drain in the future.
When I see a couple with a child living together and the mother is claiming sole parent benefits and the father is getting cash in hand and also getting the dole (I have seen this before) I get rather annoyed. When I hear of young people popping out kids for the $3000 baby bonus we have here, I get riled up. Especially when these kids are then inadequately looked after. So yes I do understand your point, I just think it is a moot one since the government isn't going to suddenly stop handing out money. Having said that, here in Aus we are currently implementing a new plan to take young mums off benefits if they refuse to gain the skills and educations needed to get a job. I do understand the need for societal change, a lot of my arguments prior to this came from the point of view of 'ok I made my mistake. What will make it better?'.
I personally find it saddening though that for so many the focus is a financial one, not a concern for children born to parents that may not be ready to cope. In my opinion, that is the scarier side to unplanned pregnancy.
How do you know who those people are? How do you know who is stuck in the cycle of poverty and is working as hard as they can to get out, and who is just being lazy? You have no way of knowing which people fall into which category, so you assume that anyone who's receiving any kind of government aid must be lazy and greedy. Usually that is not the case. Usually it's the working poor who were born with nothing and have had to work hard all their life just to scrape by.Quote:
What I do disagree with is paying for the poor choices of people who had a better option and CHOSE not to take it. I'm extremely liberal in my views and I have a very strong belief in community growth. But not community parasitism. People are very welcome to live their lives as they choose in our society, just don't ask anyone else to pay for it.
And as I said a long time ago in this thread, everyone uses public services that the government pays for. It's not just people on welfare. Public schools, public transport, public libraries, student loans, the police, fire department, etc...all paid for with tax dollars. If you've ever used any of those services, then you are asking other people to help pay for your lifestyle.
I find this hard to believe. Government aid usually isn't much; it's the bare minimum. People who live off government aid live in very poor circumstances, they would not be able to afford all this without working. I don't know where you live, but I can't imagine that government aid is that generous. Are you sure they don't have another source of income, like an inheritance?Quote:
You know what pisses me off?? A woman i went to school with, she has 5, yes 5!!! kids at 24, she doesnt work and neither does her partner. She has just moved in to a 4 bedroom house, rent is about double what i pay for my mortgage a month...how does she pay for it? She doesnt, she sponges off the government, claims every benefit possible and STILL cannot stop popping kids out right left and centre. It annoys me that she gets EVERYTHING paid for, she can be a stay at home mum because she doesnt have to work to put food on the table/pay the bills etc.
Actually, I don't recall you telling me that you're Republican. I came to that conclusion based on your attitude. It's your attitude that bothers me, and that attitude just happens to have a party label associated with it. If I could find a Republican who was not a selfish prick, completely devoid of compassion, I would be thrilled. They're probably out there, I just haven't met them.Quote:
Regardless of what party identification I might or might not have...attitudes that impeach ideas just because they are associated with a "party label"...it just goes to show that the basic assumption of liberal democracy (i.e., people actually make reasoned arguments) is a lost cause in mass society.
No, I only hate groups that feel the way you do about these issues. I can't stand that attitude. I've been making very rational arguments, but your only response is to say I'm ignorant just because I don't agree with your position that you shouldn't have to pay taxes that support people who are stuck in poverty. Yours is a "blame the victim" attitude and it makes me sick. That's not ignorance; it's called compassion. We live in a community. If everyone contributes a little (i.e., taxes), everyone benefits, including you. Other people's taxes pay for things that you use too. It's not asking for much. Your taxes won't put you on the street. You're not going hungry because you have to pay taxes. I'm sure you still manage to live a comfortable lifestyle, despite the small percentage that the government takes from you every year.Quote:
You are ignorant, ShellyZ. Can't have a reasoned argument with a closed mind. Your "statement" is a fill in the blank statement...any group could apply for your ire. You'd hate any group "just because," right??
I asked the same question earlier, but how do you know who those people are? You just assume that all poor people are "just wallowing in their circumstances" but you have no idea. You'd like to think that if people are poor, they must have done something to deserve it. It must be their fault somehow. The truth is, it's damn near impossible to work your way out of the cycle of poverty without a little help. That's why people who are born into poverty usually live their whole lives that way, because no one wants to help. Where you end up depends on where you start. I'm guessing you were not born into poverty, correct?Quote:
If you are doing something about your condition, I'd probably willingly lend a hand (up to a point). If you are just wallowing in your circumstances, then that's not my problem.
This is why it's stupid to discuss politics in this forum. It's not the place for it, and we're never going to agree. You need to understand that people are not ignorant just because they disagree with you.
Taxes for schools and roads are not the same as welfare. The former benefits *communities* and the latter benefits individuals. If you want to understand the difference imagine what happens if 10X more people suddenly decide to live off welfare. Gets pretty ugly pretty fast.
Governments should not be involved in charity. Period. Protection of the state (military), enforcing of laws to protect society and providing infrastructure that is too expensive for individual communities. Libraries, schools, roads, etc. Let the local communities care for their own; traditionally they have done a pretty good job at it and the ones who really aren't in need are pretty quickly found out. This is one of the few areas I think organized religion did something useful.
I am not proud to say it, but I do practice sex with out a condom and use the pull out method. This is not right in the least, but I can't help it. I took the pill for a year and it made me crazy and I hated it, and I've used condoms a few times and I hate them. I would try it once, but you have to completely be able to trust your guy to know to pull out way early. Maybe buy the newva ring or whatever. that goes in once a month i think and keeps you from getting pregnant, or use a diaphram?
How much is a 'small percentage' to you? LOL you really don't have a clue what you are talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShellyZ [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Actually you are mistaken if you think welfare doesn't benefit the community. Look in the past when there was no welfare systems. How did those who couldn't work make their living? By being involved in crime. If I can find where it's been anaysed, a welfare system actually costs the government less than not having one.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Just looking at Wiki at some jail costs:
I'm not for open slather on welfare. There definitely needs to be checks and stop guards for it, but to say it is not necessary is rather short sighted. And as MaidenMinx says, giving her boy care now means he will be less likely to be a drain on society in the future.Quote:
In 2006, $68,747,203,000 was spent on corrections.[62] "The average annual operating cost per state inmate in 2001 was $22,650, or $62.05 per day; among facilities operated by the Federal Bureau of Prisons, it was $22,632 per inmate, or $62.01 per day."[63]
Housing the approximately 500,000 people in jail awaiting trial who cannot afford bail costs $9 billion a year
Sorry, what's your point about prisons? That they are expensive? Agreed. Those 2001 numbers are for a system that has both prisons AND welfare. So, based on your data I could just as easily say that its because of welfare those prison numbers are so high. Your data isn't supporting the point you are trying to make.Quote:
Originally Posted by roobarb [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Most people don't have to go back too many generations for family who are immigrants of some form, particularly in North America. A lot of them arrived with absolutely nothing. Why is it that almost none of my grandparents generation needed welfare (nor would they take it if offered). They worked HARD and did extremely well for it.
Yes they are expensive. Take away the welfare system and look at how many people will resort to crime to survive. How much more will it cost the government then?Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
There are a lot of migrants who did work hard. But look at the size of the criminal underclass of those times as well. It was a lot larger than now in comparison to the population size.
Oh, and as for the 'compassion' argument:
If someone you loved was in dire need, you wouldn’t send them to the welfare office.
BS. Show me the numbers. People need dignity not handouts. Put taxes into education and jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by roobarb [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]