[QUOTE=indigosoul]No, I still disagree w/you. The above counterexample is more like how a Naturalist would behave. YOUR original example is more like Experimental science. You ARE conducting an experiment. No different from the guy who adds something to the petri dish to watch the cells wriggle... for the following reason:[quote]
I still disagree with you too. I don't see how my counterexample was different with yours. I had a parallel with every element. You claim:
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The distinction b/w observational science (like a naturalist), is that conclusions are made from observations WITHOUT perturbing the system (e.g. fat guy) and Experimental science, where a stimulus is applied and a result observed (e.g. your example). This is by definition manipulation, and is what you have been describing. You are NOT an impartial observer, you are CONTROLLING the amount of interest YOU show & observing the result… the stimulus COMES FROM YOU. AND what you do next is a function of the result you get. Unlike the “fat guy” case, where you are more like a Naturalist; you haven’t added anything to the system and the status quo is preserved. Unless you then CHOOSE to say something... in which case you then make the system experimental.
You claim that in my example, my lack of expressing, even articulating everything that's on my mind is a stimulus, while your lack of articulating what's on your mind is not changing the status quo. I say either could be either. Scientifically they're a comparable scenario.
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So I still see it as manipulation. Now, whether this is okay in the case of our "friends" is a different question. You seem to be saying it is, especially considering the consequences, and maybe you're right and I'm just a control freak. But I would still want it acknowledged... tho maybe later would be okay once the relationship was more equal. Hmmm. Seem to be backpedaling here... It just SEEMS so insulting to me... :sad2:
I still see it as choice of behavior and disclosure...and don't be insulted..that's not my objective, we're just having a very civil discussion, I believe. And to tackle this other post:
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I hear you. The key here is "I'd LIKE YOU to feel the same way". Manipulation to acheive the desired outcome.
Allow me to rephrase: How about "I'd like it if you felt the same way"...
That changes things, right? That helps my case because I can argue much in the same way as my previous example that our behavior is always based on what we want. WE CHOOSE to behave in the way we behave. W e know the consequences and we know what happens when we behave a certain way and we choose to behave accordingly.
Example: I want my mom to be proud of me. She values hard work. Result, I make an effort toward being a hard worker. Other scenario..it's too hard for me to be a hard worker..so even though I'd like to make my moms proud, I just don't have the will to do it. I either make me happy in making my mom happy or I make me happy in being lazy. Either way, it's always about me. You cannot escape it.
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Or... oh, okay, maybe you say the game isn't to produce new feelings, but to tease out (what might be?) existing ones...? "to get a clue what you feel", in your example. Well, still manipulation in my book, but puts a different flavour to it. Tho I suppose you could argue you're not manipulating anything, simply uncovering what's already there. I guess since I seem to be using a lot of science analogies, the equivalent would be "dissection" to uncover what's underneath.
Well, it's about getting a clue as to what the other is feeling, I guess, is the closest you got there. Since, unfortunately, most people aren't as blunt as you and I would like them to be...more below..
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Are we finding a common language yet?
I think we've shared a common language all along...whenever I don't understand something I ask you..but I do believe that the limits of verbal language don't help our cause in discussions sometimes.
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Damn, it would still be easier if everyone was just upfront about what they are thinking/feeling, huh Nomas? This example is a special case, anyway; I still think your behavioural method is best used on ppl who don't really know each other that well.
...continuing on this "being up front". Yup, you're right. Nothing would be better if you could just walk up to someone and say, excuse me, so I was wondering what your level of interest was in me in the categories of: Friendship, Romance, Admiration, and Economic Interests. I accept responses in the following formats: Fractions, Percentages, Pie Charts, and Bar Graphs. Thank you.
Yeah, we'll be hard pressed to find people like that.
Oh, well, maybe we're imperfect for a reason..
We'd have nothing to talk about if we were all as perfect as the systems I can design. We woud reject such perfection. Like the matrix..
