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Thank you Mish for that voice of reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishanya [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Donrite: The only problem with compromise is that it can, often, result in TWO unhappy people. Any married person will tell you that the only kind of true compromise is where BOTH people agree 100% on the solution. It has to be mutual agreement. Don't stop before this point or you will be unhappy with the outcome. Trust me on this.
Depends on what you count to be "experience".. let's run a set of our sexual & romantic encounters in the past two months and see who has more? (we can do this for a lifetime's worth aswell, and i'm only 23)Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
I don't have anything against married people; and as much as Indi has gone off into her ego-trip-trance once again, she will once again read all the posts (like a scientist) and see the game-plan i've set forth for you; she may not like it because she's a woman & a mother, but if she looks at it scientifically; she'll see it's the most reasonable course of action to take..
Now, I may not be married (nor do I plan to be until i'm 33+, I go into phases sometimes "one-itis" where I feel I just want to throw my life & future away and marry the person of my dreams, then I go out one night and it's over), but i'm happy and perfectly content; (given, at one point, this lifestyle has to stop) but it will have to stop when i'm truly more content with being married and starting a family WITH THE RIGHT PERSON WHO I WANT TO SPEND THE REST OF MY LIFE WITH.
If during the time of the relationship I have reason to believe that I simply wouldn't be happy with that person for the rest of my life; I WOULD assume full responsibility of the child (not that I would be dumb enough to have one at that point; but hypothetically so if can fit into your situation); and I would simply look to find someone else I WOULD be more than happy to spend the rest of my life with, there are plenty of good-natured, nice, sweet, etc women out there; if you're at this stage in life, forget looks, you're not picking a girlfriend (fcuk-buddy, pseudo-relationship type thing), you're looking for a wife, and your time for sex was prior to marriage, after marriage, sex is no longer to be considered YOUR priority (get it out of your mind), and focus on the well-being of your family and wife. (Not to imply that sex won't take place, it will, but that's NOT why you should marry)..
Now, in your situation; you haven't quite determined if this is the woman you would want to spend the rest of your life with; the two of you are still at an impass (even though it's clear that she's NOT one to fit the wife-bill; i'll let YOU make that determination).
If things were in THIS situation; I would set things in place, and the same manipulation and disrespectful female-antics she threw my way so she could get way; I would throw right back at her, in much greater magnitude and make her go down on her knees, feeling afraid, scared, lost, hopeless, desperate. I would make her sit there for a day or two, really dwelling on those feelings and taking a moment to digest and absorb those emotions and ask herself if this is really what she wants, if this is really what she wants things to be like, were will she go from here, what will she do now? THAT'S when i'd put my control-&-dominance on the side (totally at my will; only because I want to compromise, I don't need to do this, but I "want" to compromise, I don't want to manipulate for my own personal gain).. and now that we are both on equal playing-fields; we can talk things over (she will be more open to ideas, offer actual suggestions, open up to what the problem is, what her issues are, and show willingness not just to work things out; but to work things out in a way that is "mutually beneficial", and not just beneficial for her).. At this point I would think if she's still the person I would want to spend the rest of my life with.
So although you have alot of women jumping up and yelling out in an effort to voice what seems to be (their concerns), the general idea run parallel to the game-plan i've layed out for you; just please, stop wimping out, and do the right thing already..
Hi all Indi I can't comprimise with her. Its day number 11th and nothing yet. I didn't ask nor flirt nor touch. How can a person comprimise about sex and or love making. She said no, nothing, zilt, nadda and that she wants to be celibate. hmmm. So I want sex she doesn't. I threw oral sex at her, nothing. She said nothing sexual. So I rest. So as GS stated in so many words She wanna play hard ball lets play. I'm gonna wine and dine till the end of the month, if the love making is not back in order I'm not going to leave but everything is getting cut off, brush off the whole 9 yards. I think intamacy is very important. From a scale of 1 to 10 me personally it should fall into the number 3 catagory with 1 & 2 being trust and communication. without 3 I can't do it. What a way to start 2008 cut off cold turkey.
Take it easy and relax. Her resolution will not last. She will beg you to have sex with her again. Just act as if you are respecting her decision for the time being...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donrite [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
What you aren't telling us is WHY you don't just marry her. You know this is what she wants, she is the mother of your child, and it's not like you don't know her. What is the problem? Are you 15 or something?
This is good advice^. At least for the short term. Eleven days actually isn't long to wait. Meantime, Donrite, you need to figure out why she has flipped this switch on you.Quote:
Originally Posted by lovecot [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Try to remember that its not about control or manipulation (if you really care about her & your child). Those are just silly games that children play. Its about solving the problem you are having so that your relationship can get BETTER. That means you BOTH get what you want, as opposed to trying to 'win' the argument. What are you doing to make that happen?
BTW, I *do* allow for the possibility that your partner is totally unreasonable. Happens to the best of us, both male and female that we choose unwisely. Has she used ultimatums like this before in other arguments? Is she emotionally unstable? It is disturbing that she would make such a sweeping change to your relationship without discussing it with you first. Or has she tried to discuss it with you and you have been uninterested? Make sure you take a good, honest look at what you have done to contribute to the problem. Generally, problems do not occur in a vacuum. Based on your posts, it sounds possible that her value to you is primarily for sex (in which case mbe she is justified in cutting you off?).
If however you have been unfortunate enough to choose a truly unreasonable partner & you really aren't interested in giving her what she wants (marriage?), then you should really own up to that and leave the relationship asap. Make sure you make suitable arrangements to take care of your child; the child shouldn't be made to suffer for the inability of the parents to sort their issues out.
There's nothing at all scientific about what you have proposed. In fact, your advice is just like the sort of bad science I see (and blast) almost every day. Its based solely on opinion, without any predictive data to back it up. Your comments are the equivalent of those religious nutbars who claim what they say as fact but is actually nothing better than unsubstantiated opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by GrkScorp [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
The FACT is, GS, and there is data from *thousands* of married couples in couples therapy for this, is that partners that engage in the type of manipulating behaviour that you suggest (and refuse to change/grow up) eventually DIVORCE. Of course, withholding sex also tends to lead to cheating & divorce (and noone in this thread has said otherwise).
What does work, is calm, open, honest communication.
What you are suggesting is only going to break their trust further. Yes, its despicable that she is using sex as a weapon, but two wrongs do NOT make for a good relationship. Only a bad breakup.
If you want to breakup with this gal, Donrite, carry on down this path. But IMO, there are classier ways to break up with someone.
Oh, when her day 11 comes around; she'll start feeling the pain.. only that her day 11 will be more like a day 30.. but what's important to consider is that she's punished you in order to get what she wants (marriage), and she's picked something that is important and valuable to you..Quote:
Originally Posted by Donrite [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
By cutting off everything, you're punishing her by taking away what's important to her; AND, she'll realize your threat value is serious.. this will and should be enough to make her crack..
If you want to speed up the process however; you can diminish her threat value on you (witholding sex) by making her feel as if you're getting it elsewhere.. leaving her feeling like an idiot who has no real bargaining power on the table, and is now left living without the things she values (you witholding those things from her)..
I hate to be so vulgar and insensitive and break down this important matter into some economics puzzle (game, really).. but when you think about it through this light; the Nash equilibrium leans in your favor (whether you take things slow, or if you choose to speed things up)..
Now, word of warning, and this one is serious.. you don't want to actually cheat.. and you sound like the type of person who knows that.. you definitely have a good head on your shoulders.. but just remember that..
In fact, you don't want to make her feel like you're cheating.. only that there's a reasonable risk you are.. and that reasonable risk has alot to do with the "motive" for you to cheat.. (her witholding).. so when you start showing up late at night, or at unreasonable times in the morning, when you perhaps ask her to find your favorite jacket, come back home and leave it on the couch with an open 3-pack of condoms where 1 or 2 of them are missing; you start to spell out a hazy picture in her mind that something is up.. (you're making her feel that her "witholding" threat is no longer a threat to you; she has no power/control over you).. and when she feels this, well.. i've explained what happens in 3-4 posts now.. you get the picture..
Unlike an economics game however where you capitalize (cash in) so to speak, on your bargaining advantage (like she's trying to do; which is why she's manipulative).. your goal is to eliminate that control/power she feels over you, to get her to stop playing this game with you, to get her feeling hopeless & lost, So that??? So that she will be in the state of mind to hold that open, civilized, compromising conversation with you, so she will be motivated to reach and work out a mutually beneficial compromise; (which guess what, will have nothing to do with sex if you really get her to stop playing these games with you).. the compromise will have to do with what she wants to do in terms of marriage.. your bargaining chips are not going to be sex vs. things couples do together.. NO! your bargaining chips are going to be marriage (things working out between us) vs. no marriage (things no working out between us).. that's what it boils down to.. all that i've spelled out for you is the MEANS to the end.. not the actual END..
IMPORTANT WARNING: Don't throw in the white-flag.. I can almost anticipate that when you start playing your game, she'll offer to have sex with you.. no! this isn't what you want.. (this is getting stuck in playing the game; that's not what you want).. don't throw in the white-flag.. you want her to get in the state of mind to seriously compromise.. in fact tell her.. "When your done with your bullsh*t games, and you want to seriously talk about more important things; the ACTUAL issues you want to talk about; you know, the ones you're using sex as a weapon for, i'm ready to talk; until then, we have nothing to talk about; i'm going out, i'll see you tonight, don't stay up, i'll be late.." :stuckup:
(Unscientific prediction: Indi and/or Vash won't be able to control the urge to respond to this post and say some follow-up comment) :lol:
i don't get why you think she cheats?
is that because you always want sex from her and she tries to reject you? just not give in whenever you ask?
gskorps last post in a nutshell: make it look like you're cheating so the girl gets jealous and then miraculously she'll have sex with him.
Yawn. This is an example of a technique called 'reverse psychology' and obvious. It is used when someone is losing an argument b/c they can't defend their ideas on their merit alone. GS, you know you are way outclassed, so just stop, okay? Unless you *want* me to teach you proper argumentation, in which case PM me & I'll send you my current rates.Quote:
Originally Posted by GrkScorp [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
So long as you keep posting poor advice I will keep pointing it out as such. I think Miso's distillation of your last makes any futher comment on my part unnecessary tho. :lol:
Back to the topic: So far, the best advice on here has been Mish's.
Don, have you had this conversation with her yet? What did she say? Does she admit that withholding sex as a weapon isn't the most mature way to get what she wants?Quote:
You need to have a serious conversation with her about where she wants to go from here. That if she wants marriage as a stable environment for your child then you will give it to her, but you don't want to be pressured or manipulated into it and you don't want her to use sex as a weapon against you.
But I think this is what it all comes down to. It looks like she's down to her last resort tactic. You need to marry her or leave.
Marry her immediately and then you can continue fornicating !
Well; just so you know, that's not when reverse psychology is used.. in fact, that's not even what reverse psychology is; if it was reverse psychology I would have had to say something along the lines of "Indi is NOT going to respond to my post because she's too much of a wussy, blah blah".. that's the general idea and syntax; but that's not what happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
So if this is the kind of arguing you're talking about; you should consider lowering your rates; better yet, go pro bono.. :D
Now; just for your understanding in the future, insulting others, is classless, but aside from that, it shows that you're not confident and secure in your point. (But I really don't care, just take a look at who's advice the main poster has found more useful; case & point).
Try and control yourself with the (generic witty insult towards GS) posts.. I know this isn't the real Indi; Indi is mature, she doesn't insult with an ill-motive.. this is nothing more than forum tension gone a little too far..
You've clearly taken being playful, a little too far; just take a minute and reflect.. RELAX; like I said, I really don't judge.. I know this isn't you, this is what happens to you when things get a little overstreched.. so just relax, seriously.. let it go, this issue is more or less moot at this point. It looks like the original poster has made it clear what he's going to do; so until we get more feedback from him, it's pointless to sit here and go at it.. so just relax.. :D
Common girl; I want the old Indi back ;)
Marry her now. Wt the hell...
Says the expert to the person who actually has a degree in psychology? Haha, GS, and just WHO do you think writes those articles in wikipedia you rely on? Oops! :astonish:Quote:
Originally Posted by GrkScorp [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]
Actually, this IS, the 'old Indi'. Most of the time I have no need to express this side of myself so aggressively (its usually reserved for discussing bad science). It just seems that recently there are individuals posting on the internet who think that their self-proclaimed 'expert knowledge' (usually acquired thru unverified sources like wikipedia or worse, nothing more than their personal belief) is okay to cast widely and should go unchallenged. When their inability to actually defend their views thru rational argument/hard data happens, they start to invoke all kinds of interesting, but unrelated, techniques thru rhetoric. Colloquially called 'baffle them with bullshit'.
I just like to point the process out for those less experienced with dealing with this kind of thing. And make the related point that its NOT okay to let ppl spew whatever shit they want & let it go unchallenged for the sake of politeness. B/c are there are misguided, but well-meaning ppl who might get confused by the crap out there. Its extremely harmful to the overall process of progress thru rational thought & I think its my duty to point it out where I see it.
(does it perhaps sound like this isn't the first time I've thought about this? Hmmm...)