Two professionals, same salary - can't agree on splitting expenses

Our problem:
We fight frequently about how to share expenses, and both of us seem to feel very justified in our thought process.

I'd like to get your opinions about how you'd feel in a similar situation or what you think is fair/reasonable.


My girlfriend and I have been together for over a year. Before that we were friends and colleagues in school and work for a few years. In summary, we are the same age (27), and both professionals (physicians in training) with the same level education and current salary. As individuals we are both doing fine financially and in a couple of years we are both expecting to make very high salaries (300k+/yr and about equal to each other).

Our relationship goal is a long-term and committed one. We maintain our own apartments but for nearly the entire relationship, one of us is spending their evenings and weekends at the other's place. We have also spent extended periods of time essentially living together for several months. We know each other's schedules and coordinate our plans, whether they are things done together (most of the time) or letting the other know we need separate time (less often).

Our spending patterns at baseline were very different before we were together, as we grew up differently. My family had more money and a culture of spending without worry much about costs, bargains or deals. Her family had much less money and a culture of frugality with attempts to minimize costs whenever possible.

When together, household work is split as follows. She enjoys cooking and frequently makes elaborate meals for us. I cook less often for us and meals I know how to make are simpler. She hates to clean, I don't mind it- so I do most of the cleaning. She hates driving, I don't mind it, so I do most of that.

Here's our disagreement... (I'm going to do my best to present both sides equally)

She wants me to pay for the majority of our shared expenses. She believes it's a gender role for the man to pay. She becomes very unhappy and upset at the prospect of me not wanting to pay for her, or to "not want to take care of her," in her words. Ideally, she does not want to pay at all for dinners or "dates" out. She is willing to make offers to pay infrequently, but would greatly prefer that I do not take her up on these offers and still pay for us myself. In her own words, when I take her up on these offers, she pays reluctantly and is unhappy about it. Because of my resistance to paying for everything, she is willing to reluctantly split expenses more evenly, but still desires a fixed, uneven split of 70%-30% for example. She has said there is no particular logic to her desires, but she doesn't feel cared for when costs are split equally and all of her female friends in their respective relationships "get paid for and taken care of." Moreover, she discusses this issue with her male friends and reports to me that they are all agree with her that she should be paid for overall. If we fight about this issue, she becomes very upset, citing that it's not about needing the money or to be paid for, it's that she wants me "to WANT to pay for her."

My viewpoint is that I would like expenses split evenly. Ideally, my relationship would be one of mutual respect and contribution, in all ways, including financial. Just like her, for me this issue has nothing to do with ability to pay. It's also about my own emotional response and meaning associated with paying for expenses. I feel disrespected and devalued as a partner in the relationship when I am expected to pay an arbitrarily uneven amount. To me, this means that my love and time are under-valued because I am a man, and that I am essentially paying for her love and time, signalling that hers is more valuable. I feel like the unequal financial burden is an unfair penalty placed on me for being a man. I feel emasculinated and manipulated when she cites other people's personal examples of how seemingly all other men are willing to pay for their women, "so why can't you?" I grow resentful when she is contributing a much more significant portion of her income to her retirement account than I am while expecting me to frequently display my affection by taking her on dinners and "dates." I feel I have embraced a modern concept of gender roles and feminism, and respect and support my girlfriend's personal growth and professional endeavors--frequently offering her my genuine sympathy regarding unfair treatment in the workplace because she's a woman and recognizing the sometimes subtle hardships that have to be overcome because of this. Therefore I become upset and frustrated when I feel like the equality we agree upon in other aspects of life is not being recognied by her when it comes to money.

The end result of our disagreement is that we fight a lot, and we probably do not have as much fun or do as many things together as we could afford to. We both limit activities involving money--I avoid them so I won't feel pressured to consistently pay for her and consequently feel devalued and resentful. She avoids them so she won't feel pressured to pay for herself (or alternate paying) and therefore uncared for an unappreciated. This argument has been going on as long as the relationship has. We still do go out, and I probably still pay an unequally larger amount when averaged over time. When we first got together, I paid for everything. Because of these fights, over a year, costs have slowly become more evenly split. Yet, she remains resentful and unhappy about sharing expenses and this leads to this problem resurfacing very frequently in our arguments.

Ideally, I wish we could both have more fun and do more together, with less emphasis being placed on the costs of things and bills quickly getting taken care of in an alternating fashion. It frustrates me that the somewhat arbitrary emotional value of money (and what it can signify to her in terms of my affection) are limiting our possibilities.

Ideally, she would probably want us to have more fun and do more together, with me not being that concerned about the costs of things and me quickly taking care of our mutual expenses. It probably frustrates her that the emotionally response I have associated with spending unevenly keeps me from paying for her consistently and limits our possibilities.


How would YOU feel in this situation (men and women)? We are both curious about other opinions, and I think we're both equally frustrated how each other doesn't seem to get what seems obvious to the other person.

Everything should be split 50/50. Me and my bf do this and i earn less than him but i wouldnt have it any other way.

Is this about you paying for dates and things like that in the present, or does she expect you to pay 70% of your living expenses once you live together? Was she brought up in a culture where the man pays for everything?

MerryH: We currently have separate places. We often explore the possibility of living together and we agree to split rent and utilities evenly in that scenario. The disagreement concerns all other incidental expenses, especially recreation (restaurants, movies, admission to things, travel) where she is particularly unhappy about sharing these costs.

For example, for travel, she readily shares expenses for plane, but becomes unhappy about the other costs like dining, covers, transportation.

For day-to-day recreation, she expects to mostly be paid for our mutual activities, including driving, parking, dining, and admissions to other activities.


You can get the sense that our disagreement isn't about the big major expenses, more a philosophical disagreement about equity and justice and the strong emotions that each of us have wrapped up in this.

Thats ridiculous and tight fisted of her. If she can work a decent enough job to earn the same as you, then you share expenses equally unless one of you decides on something waaaay more expensive like out at dinner or whatever.

This might be a silly idea, but it's sort of a silly situation. It's not about the money for her, it's about the principle, right? She doesn't want to go digging through her adorable little clutch purse to pay after a meal. I sort of get that.

What about taking out a credit card with both your names on it (can you do that if you're unmarried?) to be paid off monthly. You pay 60%, she pays 40%. You hang on to the credit card and it's only to be used for your mutually agreed upon incidental expenses. You can whip it out to pay for things and she still feels like she's getting treated. Would that work? You said it's not really about the money for you, either, and if it would make her feel more ladylike and special or whatever, why make a big deal over paying an extra 10%?

If I earned the same, then I'd go 50/50....naturally.

If he was the higher earner and we lived together, ie: living expenses, bills, food, etc, then of course I'd expect that he contribute more, which my ex partner did and he never grumbled about it.

I wouldn't suggest a fancy restaurant and with all the trims and unless I was in a posistion to be able to pay for it also...hence 50/50 or I'd treat my guy and pay the whole bill. But then I like to spoil...and am not a greedy bitch.

I don't believe in the 50-50 rule. I once had a boyfriend who went as far as keeping a ledger of expenses during vacatations, where he went as far as writing down stamps and newspapers. What was going to be next on the 50-50 ledger? Making sure we spent equal minutes giving oral sex?

What you are in is a personal relationship, not a business relationship. Everyone needs to give/contribute in their own way, and if the other isn't happy with what they are getting from the relationship, than they need to leave. And when I say give/contribute I mean help with chores, do little things to make the person feel special, financial, etc.

She is spending time picking out recipes for you, buying special ingredients, cooking, and then probably cleaning up afterwards = perhaps 3 hours of work on her part. Three hours where she worked and where her end goal was to make you happy. When was the last time you spent three hours preparing for a date? Taking her out? What is that besides a 3 minute phone call to make reservations.

Now according to you her salary will soon be $300,000 a year. Assuming that this salary is based on 2,500 hours of work per year, she just spent over $400 in labor costs and probably another $25 on groceries. So next time you gripe that she doesn't contribute, remember what these meals signify.

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Originally Posted by reeba [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

I don't believe in the 50-50 rule. I once had a boyfriend who went as far as keeping a ledger of expenses during vacatations, where he went as far as writing down stamps and newspapers. What was going to be next on the 50-50 ledger? Making sure we spent equal minutes giving oral sex?

What you are in is a personal relationship, not a business relationship. Everyone needs to give/contribute in their own way, and if the other isn't happy with what they are getting from the relationship, than they need to leave. And when I say give/contribute I mean help with chores, do little things to make the person feel special, financial, etc.

She is spending time picking out recipes for you, buying special ingredients, cooking, and then probably cleaning up afterwards = perhaps 3 hours of work on her part. Three hours where she worked and where her end goal was to make you happy. When was the last time you spent three hours preparing for a date? Taking her out? What is that besides a 3 minute phone call to make reservations.

Now according to you her salary will soon be $300,000 a year. Assuming that this salary is based on 2,500 hours of work per year, she just spent over $400 in labor costs and probably another $25 on groceries. So next time you gripe that she doesn't contribute, remember what these meals signify.

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Ya know this is soooo true. Men tend to forgot those little things that we do for them - good post :)

reeba: Your points are well taken. But I'd like to elaborate a little because I think you may be underestimating my appreciation and gratitude toward her non-financial contributions.

Firstly, when she cooks nice meals for me, I go out of my way to praise her and her food and to revist how good it was later to make sure she feels appreciated. I also participate in helping to cook (being her assistant, doing what she tells me) and thus spend a fair amount of time doing it as a joint activity. I also try to do all the cleaning whenever she cooks. I cook her meals on my own too, and do all the cleaning myself, though like I said this is not a special skill I have but I try my best. I will also shop and contribute ingredients when she cooks, and of course when I cook I supply all the ingredients. Generally, I readily get up and serve her when she's over at my place. I usually don't feel right about sitting around and being served when I'm at her's.

You could also look at the fact that when we did live together before, I did the vast majority of the scrubbing, cleaning, and laundry, and I do most of the driving.

My point about feeling un-valued as a man is that when I spend my time doing these things, I also "spend" this much in labor costs since my time is equally valuable as a professional. I feel like our other contributions that don't involve money end up evening out, and I feel like I do my share to help out and appreciate her in other ways.

Thus, I get hurt and bent out of shape when I'm still assigned a "tax" (my perception) as a man to pay for fairly expensive things, or many small things that add up.

And to be honest, if she felt that I wasn't doing my fair share to make her feel valued and appreciated in ways that don't involve money, I would rather explore some ways I could make her feel better and show more affection than to go about it by paying for things.

A final point to keep in mind is that I still do end up paying for more small things and more often. I get insulted that some big expenses of mine like nice dinners seem to be soon forgotten a couple weeks later when any suggestion is made for her to pay for our recreation, which she may do at that point, but only very reluctantly and with experiencing a significant amount of guilt like I'm imposing on her with the very implicit suggestion that I'm "less of a man" for not paying at that point.

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Originally Posted by MerryH [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

What about taking out a credit card with both your names on it (can you do that if you're unmarried?) to be paid off monthly. You pay 60%, she pays 40%

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The idea of having a pool of mutual money to simplify the payment process and make things less awkward for accounting seems very reasonable.

But the arbitrary built-in unfairness continues to not sit well with me. Why are we not just able to enjoy shared experiences with each other and take care of the expenses mutually, and value each other equally in this process. Why do almost all activities need to be seen as something I am providing (even if it's not a big difference in percent) with the implicit feeling that this is something she is deserving of and I am not?

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Originally Posted by greg2345 [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Why do almost all activities need to be seen as something I am providing (even if it's not a big difference in percent) with the implicit feeling that this is something she is deserving of and I am not?

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I don't know, these weird gender roles are so ingrained that it's hard to break out of them, sometimes. I don't think you should get hung up on the perceived unfairness of it, you should rather try to agree to a compromise that you can both be happy with. If you're splitting everything else 50/50, and it's just dinners, trips, etc. that you pay a small percentage more for, and it makes her happy, and it doesn't impact you negatively, why fight over it?

I can understand why you're bothered by it, but if I were in your shoes and a compromise could be reached, this is a not a battle I would pick.

Greg, there's a very simple solution to this problem.

1) Go down on her.
2) Enslave her via tongue-gasm.
3) ????
4) PROFIT!

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Originally Posted by greg2345 [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

reeba: Your points are well taken. But I'd like to elaborate a little because I think you may be underestimating my appreciation and gratitude toward her non-financial contributions.

Firstly, when she cooks nice meals for me, I go out of my way to praise her and her food and to revist how good it was later to make sure she feels appreciated. I also participate in helping to cook (being her assistant, doing what she tells me) and thus spend a fair amount of time doing it as a joint activity. I also try to do all the cleaning whenever she cooks. I cook her meals on my own too, and do all the cleaning myself, though like I said this is not a special skill I have but I try my best. I will also shop and contribute ingredients when she cooks, and of course when I cook I supply all the ingredients. Generally, I readily get up and serve her when she's over at my place. I usually don't feel right about sitting around and being served when I'm at her's.

You could also look at the fact that when we did live together before, I did the vast majority of the scrubbing, cleaning, and laundry, and I do most of the driving.

My point about feeling un-valued as a man is that when I spend my time doing these things, I also "spend" this much in labor costs since my time is equally valuable as a professional. I feel like our other contributions that don't involve money end up evening out, and I feel like I do my share to help out and appreciate her in other ways.

Thus, I get hurt and bent out of shape when I'm still assigned a "tax" (my perception) as a man to pay for fairly expensive things, or many small things that add up.

And to be honest, if she felt that I wasn't doing my fair share to make her feel valued and appreciated in ways that don't involve money, I would rather explore some ways I could make her feel better and show more affection than to go about it by paying for things.

A final point to keep in mind is that I still do end up paying for more small things and more often. I get insulted that some big expenses of mine like nice dinners seem to be soon forgotten a couple weeks later when any suggestion is made for her to pay for our recreation, which she may do at that point, but only very reluctantly and with experiencing a significant amount of guilt like I'm imposing on her with the very implicit suggestion that I'm "less of a man" for not paying at that point.

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Your relationship sounds so much like a business realationship

You know this site is full of 50-50 stories. Like who folded the most laundry that week. Bickering like unhappily married couples. Yes your gf probably is a little self adsorbed. But I still say you are nickle and diming your relationship. So let me explain it this way.

Suppose you break up with her and you go out looking for another prospect. You meet this nice hot waitress and you ask her out. She is a college student, and most likely living paycheck to paycheck. Are you going to expect her to pay 50-50?

If the above girl is worth you picking up her tab, then why isn't your current gf? I bet at one time you paid for her - at the beginning of the relationship. So why are you griping now? Is it because you don't love her as much? Or perhaps you feel that you already got her, so she isn't worth the effort any longer?

You are lucky right now that you have your financial equal and she pays some. Because I can guarantee you that your next girlfriend will expect you to pay up 100%. Sure these girls on this site say they go 50-50. Bet they have never dated someone making several times more than they do. Even a dumb girl will eventually figure out the math, that because you make so much more than her, you spending a dollar is equal to her spending $5. And that fancy restaurant meal she just paid for, was money she should have spent on her utility bill.

So the cold truth is your career and fortune came with a price tag, and that is women will now COST you. You will pay because three things - you are the guy, because you can afford it, and because women want to be able to boast about what their boyfriends did for them. Just because a woman decided on a successful career does not mean that she agreed to give up these three basic things from a man. Note – your gf is only asking for you to pay for a portion of the fun things/gifts, she isn't asking you to pay for her basic humdrum living expenses. She is looking for the boasting factor so her friends don't think she is a fool stuck with a cheap jerk who doesn't give a rip about her.

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Originally Posted by reeba [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

You know this site is full of 50-50 stories. Like who folded the most laundry that week. Bickering like unhappily married couples. Yes your gf probably is a little self adsorbed. But I still say you are nickle and diming your relationship. So let me explain it this way.

Suppose you break up with her and you go out looking for another prospect. You meet this nice hot waitress and you ask her out. She is a college student, and most likely living paycheck to paycheck. Are you going to expect her to pay 50-50?

If the above girl is worth you picking up her tab, then why isn't your current gf? I bet at one time you paid for her - at the beginning of the relationship. So why are you griping now? Is it because you don't love her as much? Or perhaps you feel that you already got her, so she isn't worth the effort any longer?

You are lucky right now that you have your financial equal and she pays some. Because I can guarantee you that your next girlfriend will expect you to pay up 100%. Sure these girls on this site say they go 50-50. Bet they have never dated someone making several times more than they do. Even a dumb girl will eventually figure out the math, that because you make so much more than her, you spending a dollar is equal to her spending $5. And that fancy restaurant meal she just paid for, was money she should have spent on her utility bill.

So the cold truth is your career and fortune came with a price tag, and that is women will now COST you. You will pay because three things - you are the guy, because you can afford it, and because women want to be able to boast about what their boyfriends did for them. Just because a woman decided on a successful career does not mean that she agreed to give up these three basic things from a man. Note – your gf is only asking for you to pay for a portion of the fun things/gifts, she isn't asking you to pay for her basic humdrum living expenses. She is looking for the boasting factor so her friends don't think she is a fool stuck with a cheap jerk who doesn't give a rip about her.

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I think you're misunderstanding the emotion behind his point of view.

He isn't bothered by the idea of paying for even 100%. What bothers him is the fact that she's completely capable of paying for her share, but she's refusing to. She's the one making a big deal about it.

[edit] The longer I think about this, the more I agree with his point of view. This is feminist bullshit; she's wanting the best of both worlds (making a lot of money and being paid for). Why should he be the one to pay? Why not her? It makes perfect sense for him to feel undervalued and resentful.

Oh I read it. Yes she is capable of paying her share. But he is also totally capable of paying for her.

Just because a woman makes money does not mean she has to give up being spoiled a little by her man. Or is there some unwritten rule other there stating that a successful woman have educated herself out of a nice
date?

If it wasn't a big deal to him that he has to cough up some cash to go out on a date, then why are they fighting about it (if it was no big deal he would pay and thus no more fights), and why is he posting here?

By the way when I go 50-50 I do it for several reasons. 1. because I want to feel zero obligation (chances are if I'm throwing money down on the table, the clothes are probably staying on) 2. becasue I don't want to be a financial burden (that is reserved for someone who can't afford it, not some guy who is boasting about making $300,000 a year).

OP, here is the problem. You are arguing with your gf about expectations. You expect equal sharing of the date expenses and she expects you to take the lion's share if not all of those expenses. No amount of going round and round is going to work here because one of you will feel bad with either solution.

Furthermore, logic won't work here because both of you come to your preference in this matter based on emotion that grows out of something deeper than the details you are arguing. To both of you, the payment solution you prefer REPRESENTS something far more meaningful, and that is why it is non-negotiable.

There ia good news! You don't have to argue expectations. Instead, look at the need that would be met if she did as you want. Get her to look at the need that would be met if you did as she wants. Then discuss those needs, and branch out from the narrow field of date finances. What can you do to help her feel cared for unrelated to date expenses? What can she do to make you feel appreciated and respected as an equal unrelated to dating expenses? If you figure out the real answers to what the needs are and find real alternatives to meeting them, the dating finance issue will probably become irrelevant because it won't matter so much to both of you.

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Originally Posted by reeba [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

I don't believe in the 50-50 rule. I once had a boyfriend who went as far as keeping a ledger of expenses during vacatations, where he went as far as writing down stamps and newspapers. What was going to be next on the 50-50 ledger? Making sure we spent equal minutes giving oral sex?

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So it's your contention that women are prostitutes? Trading sex for money?

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Originally Posted by reeba [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Just because a woman makes money does not mean she has to give up being spoiled a little by her man.

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There's a clear difference between being spoiled a little and being paid for. How are you unable to see the difference?

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Originally Posted by reeba [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

If it wasn't a big deal to him that he has to cough up some cash to go out on a date, then why are they fighting about it (if it was no big deal he would pay and thus no more fights), and why is he posting here?

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The big deal isn't paying for her. The big deal for him is that she's making it a big deal.

wow

this girl doesn't seem educated at all...

haha my BF doesn't really pay for everything; we usually split it. It would be nice to be a little spoiled sometimes, though! but it's true.. money does not necessarily equal spoiled. he could do other things too, like cook for you or give you a great shag. I know nothing says love like multiple orgasms.

What is going to happen if your relationship goes way long term and you get married? Has that been discussed? Will this fight go on forever or are you going to put both of your salaries in one account? That seems like the only way to resolve it, is if your money is together.

When my wife and I first dated I paid more often than she did, probably all of the time actually but she started paying sometimes when it got serious. When we lived together she paid more often for recreational things since I paid the mortgage , while she paid all other house related expenses and when we got married it wasn't an issue since we just combined our checking accounts.

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Originally Posted by Take2 [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

There ia good news! You don't have to argue expectations. Instead, look at the need that would be met if she did as you want. Get her to look at the need that would be met if you did as she wants. Then discuss those needs, and branch out from the narrow field of date finances. What can you do to help her feel cared for unrelated to date expenses? What can she do to make you feel appreciated and respected as an equal unrelated to dating expenses? If you figure out the real answers to what the needs are and find real alternatives to meeting them, the dating finance issue will probably become irrelevant because it won't matter so much to both of you.

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I really like your post, Take2. Possibly something constructive we could try to prevent these money issues from ruining our relationship.

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Originally Posted by doppelmakemelol [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

He isn't bothered by the idea of paying for even 100%. What bothers him is the fact that she's completely capable of paying for her share, but she's refusing to.

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The "hot waitress" example reeba uses makes a lot of assumptions about how I would act and what I want in a relationship, also. I would probably not seriously commit to a relationship with someone who wasn't similarly accomplished as me and career-oriented. I was attracted to my girlfriend for many reasons, physical attraction being one of them, but also more importantly because she was not only my colleague and peer (went through the same training and now we work side by side in different specialties as M.D.'s) but one of the most intelligent and accomplished women I met.

I thought this would fit well with my ideal relationship that is about equality. For me, money would be spent generously on each other and used by both people to live a great life together. For the first few months when we were together, and she lived with me, I continued to spend generously like I was used to under the assumption that she would eventually naturally reciprocate, especially as the relationship became more serious and long-term.

However, I was disappointed as time went on, and my monthly expenses nearly doubled, and I paid for dinners, outings, etc., that her natural tendency was to very infrequently help contribute. Back then I paid for groceries too. In addition, I was doing most of the cleaning, taking care of the home, and having her live at my place which was far nicer than her place. I was also readily doing things like fetching things for her and delivering them to her workplace if I was off, and nearly always doing what she wanted to do.

Obviously I burned out after several months and started to have financial problems due to the massive spending. Keep in mind, we are still a couple years from the end of our training, and right now we make the same amount, but neither of us make enough money to afford a lot of luxuries. For example, simple things like fixing my car door and buying a smart phone for myself are put on hold indefinitely because there's not a whole lot of extra money.

So I protested about the money and things evened out-- or more accurately, we just stopped doing very much at all and I probably have continued throughout our relationship to unevenly pay for things on average when we do (less frequently) go recreate.

Still, she not too infrequently suggests that we do stuff that costs money (mostly eat out) but then is very reluctant to go if there's any question that I'm not going to pay for both of us. If she does pay in an alternating fashion, it is not seen as fairly alternating payment, but some what of an imposition that she is doing me a favor because as a woman she shouldn't be paying at all ever.

But to be honest, again, it's so much more about the feeling I have associated with being "required" to pay for her more often than not, rather than the actual hardships associated with making and spending the money. Sometimes we're talking about just a 20 dollar bill at a restaurant. Still, she sees this as something she should not have to do, and any contribution on her part is being more than generous.

It's easy to get resentful when I'm called cheap if I'm reluctant to pay unfairly but she has never been particularly generous with her spending, aside from birthdays or special occasions. Meanwhile, again, she's contributing far more than me to her personal retirement savings.

If she's so into such gender stereotyping, why doesn't she just quit her job, stay at home, and do all of the washing, cooking, shopping, and cleaning. THEN you would understand her wanting to be treated all the time, but everything you have described so far suggests a degree of selfishness and a lack of appreciation for what you do. If anything, she should be taking YOU out to dinner! Relationships are all about balance and equality. She clearly has no concept of this whatsoever. Does she do anything nice for you at all?

I was bored and irritated so I drew you a picture:

[URL=http://img710.imageshack.us/i/seesaww.jpg/] [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register][/URL]

I don't understand why you aren't allowing her the opportunity to feel like someone's beloved girlfriend. Is she an ungenerous woman? Perhaps without your being so unwilling to act in the traditionally male role, she would like the opportunity to spoil YOU a little, too. This isn't a financial issue for you, so I don't understand why you don't take some degree of pleasure in being generous. It's weird.

But it IS a financial issue. If I was a woman and my boyfriend couldn't fix his car door because he was spending the money on me, I certainly wouldn't be demanding him to spend more, especially if we earned the same amount and I was largely hoarding my own earnings [that's how it looks from what has been described]. Do women not appreciate men driving them around, cleaning their house for them, washing dishes, helping with the cooking, and making a reasonable/fair financial contribution as well? How can she expect him to fulfil every aspect of the traditional male role as well as a substantial amount of the female one too? How many people are able to take pleasure from being generous in a continuous one-way street? This woman isn't staying at home looking after children and doing housework all day, she's out earning the same amount as OP, yet expects him to pay for everything, and completely fails to take into account all of the highly significant little things that he does for her on a day-to-day basis! That's just plain wrong! How can anyone stand up for such behaviour?

Edit: By financial issue I don't mean that you have a problem with paying for things, but rather that, from a financial perspective, you aren't being treated fairly, either through reciprocation in kind or simply appreciation and thanks.

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Originally Posted by Mongoose [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

But it IS a financial issue. If I was a woman and my boyfriend couldn't fix his car door because he was spending the money on me, I certainly wouldn't be demanding him to spend more,

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He said this isn't a financial issue, and I would only appreciate all those (seemingly) nice things he does if he did them with a generous heart. Also, she's not asking him to pay for everything. She's asking him to pay for their dates, and unless she is demanding 5 star restaurants, I don't think this is such a big deal. Lots of nice things can be done with little to no money, and a little imagination.

Well from the sound of things it is indeed out of generosity and care. She doesn't like cleaning so he does most of it [I presume that's at her house]. That sounds pretty nice to me.

I agree with what you're saying there, but why should everything be about the woman, and making her feel special? Isn't it equally important to do this for the guy in a relationship? Why should the man put in all the effort when he doesn't appear to receive it back? Also, if I've read it correctly, it's not just about dates, but shared expenses as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Mongoose [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Also, if I've read it correctly, it's not just about dates, but shared expenses as a whole.

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I'm pretty sure he said it's just about dates and fun things, not rent or bills.

But I did like your drawing.

Haha, thanks : D

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Originally Posted by greg2345 [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

She wants me to pay for the majority of our shared expenses. She believes it's a gender role for the man to pay.

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Yea, dates and fun things do seem to be a big part, but I'm fairly sure groceries and that kind of thing are included in there too. Might be wrong.

Groceries for their dates, maybe?

To me, it seems like she's already quite financially independent. She has her own place, pays her own bills, it's just that she wants the man to pay for the majority of the dates.

I'm not sure which side I agree with. I probably lean a bit more toward his side. But I think there are ways for the OP and fiancee to solve it without it becoming a big issue. I mean, if 60/40 will make her shut it, when money isn't even the issue for either of them, problem solved, I would think.

That probably would be the best way to go. But the underlying issue of viewing a man paying for dates and activities as his duty is probably going to have to change for this to work. Even if the guy does end up paying for most of the dates, that act must be regarded as one of generosity and affection, and not some sort of basic and meaningless prerequisite. It's the fact that she doesn't appreciate these things for what they are and respond appropriately.

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Originally Posted by greg2345 [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

I really like your post, Take2. Possibly something constructive we could try to prevent these money issues from ruining our relationship.

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You can see right on this very thread that there are people who have the same underlying emotions feeding their scripts about datig finances as you and your mate. Some say that you should pay because that is how men care for their women. Some say she should pay half because that is how a relationship of equals should work.

The truth is that neither viewpoint is "right" or "wrong" and you will be better off resolving this if you discard "right" and "wrong" from the equation. You feel how you feel, and a good relationship will value your feelings and needs. She feels how she feels, just as strongly as you do, and a good relationship will value her feelings and needs. There are many places in life where right and wrong and facts and fairness are the right way to evaluate. That is certainly how I want my doctor to approach an illness and my electrician to approach a wiring problem in my home. But relationships are much more about emotions, emotional needs, and the patterns we have learned from infancy when faced with emotions. When we try to resolve relationship issues by looking only at the facts, we fail miserably.

If you don't mind digging through some pretty dense reading to get some great insight into relationships, google "affect script psychology."

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Originally Posted by Mongoose [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

That probably would be the best way to go. But the underlying issue of viewing a man paying for dates and activities as his duty is probably going to have to change for this to work. Even if the guy does end up paying for most of the dates, that act must be regarded as one of generosity and affection, and not some sort of basic and meaningless prerequisite. It's the fact that she doesn't appreciate these things for what they are and respond appropriately.

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Well, I don't know. It is a fact that the OP has an emotional need he is not getting met. It is a fact that his gf has an emotional need she is not getting met. It is a fact that both of them bring expectations to the table, expectations that they think they need to have met to have their needs met. So he feels she is being inappropriate and she feels he is being inappropriate. But if they love each other, no amount of proving he is right or she is right will fix this. They both need to value each other's feelings and needs for the relationship to thrive. They both need to give up being "right" on this issue and figure out how to both be loving and kind to each other on this issue. That will take compromise from both of them, but neither of them has to lose anything if they address the emotional needs rather than the dollars and cents.

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Originally Posted by Mongoose [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Well from the sound of things it is indeed out of generosity and care. She doesn't like cleaning so he does most of it [I presume that's at her house]. That sounds pretty nice to me.

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That sounds pretty DUMB to me. She should live in her own place, and he should live in his, and they should keep their own places clean.

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Originally Posted by Mongoose [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

why should everything be about the woman, and making her feel special? Isn't it equally important to do this for the guy in a relationship?

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Of course it's important, but if the woman isn't feeling happy/loved, he will never have his own needs met. Good women who feel loved and appreciated tend to be generous in their own way. They tend to look for ways to spoil the man they love.

Since he is the one looking for help, and since he can only control his own behavior, it is going to be up to him to make a change. If he feels she is just a gold-digging bitch, then he really shouldn't be with her at all, don't you think?

greg, just start paying for your nights out, but take advantage of every gender stereotype you can think of. Make her do all of your cooking and cleaning, and have her wait on you hand and foot whether you're at her place or yours. Headaches and being tired should no longer get her out of sex either. If she wants stereotypical gender roles, give them to her, and figure out ways to make it enjoyable for yourself.

First off, fighting about (especially money) issues means the both of you are more about principle(s) than about "loving" one another, you can't have both.
2nd off: she feels HER opinion(s) on a serious and committed relationship ARE more valid than your own: which in itself is just begging for trouble.
Sadly and conversely: you do the same to her.

It sounds like she makes excuses so that YOU should pay for everything while she just says thank you.
She doesn't like to clean, nor to drive, so tell me? WTF does she like to do (for you?) other than give you sex? (Besides Cooking?)

Both of you are from different classes, so I can understand how she feels regarding money and being stingy with (hers) while you are able to spend like there's no tomorrow.
Her resentment could stem from seeing you lavishly spend your own money on yourself while not wanting to on her? Either way: she has arrived at
this conclusion where you should spend more money because you have more (which makes no sense if you claim your household net income is over $300,000.00 per yr??? Oh Kay.

The solution:
The both of you don't know how to coexist with one another because both of you invalidate each others' opinion(s) and feelings in the process of fighting.
This relationship is doomed to fail, only you two haven't verbally consummated the dissolution of the "title" and all of the benefits that go along with it.

This CANNOT work and if you cannot see why (after reading my post) then THAT is WHY!

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Originally Posted by BackUpOrGetStng [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

greg, just start paying for your nights out, but take advantage of every gender stereotype you can think of. Make her do all of your cooking and cleaning, and have her wait on you hand and foot whether you're at her place or yours. Headaches and being tired should no longer get her out of sex either. If she wants stereotypical gender roles, give them to her, and figure out ways to make it enjoyable for yourself.

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She doesn't like to clean so now instead of feeling resentful/unhappy due to the spending limits imposed she will
be resentful and unhappy for having to clean. However, is this post a joke to teach her a lesson? Do you think it will work?