Need some help. Constructive responses only.

I am going to be brutally honest about myself so if you are a moronic adolescent who feels the need to mock me, take your idiocy elsewhere, I will not be baited into arguments by some child who doesn't know his asshole from his elbow. You will get no ego boosting attention from me.

I should start by telling my potential female responder that I know well and understand that I am not perfect in any way. I am a chubby 27 year old virgin who has never so much as kissed a girl in a truly intimate fashion. This possibly due to not ever pursuing or seriously entertaining the thought of a relationship for most of my adult life until recently.

My standards for women are quite complex and it seems like I will never find someone whom is right for me. For one, I am an atheist and that seems an obstacle in its own right. Hell, here in the USA its all but a taboo. I am a highly rational person and while I am not so close minded as to need a person whom agrees with me on everything, I cannot connect emotionally with people who don't have at least these basic things in common with me.

Second I am not only interested in sex. I am a very intimate person, but sex is only one expression of intimacy. When I dream of my fantasy lover, I think of a hand to hold and someone to share warmth with.Make no mistake, I am a man and my blood is red. In a nutshell I want the whole package sex and love, and all of the little things in between. This puts me between a rock and a hard place. It seems i either meet women who are shallow and only care for money and material goods with little interest intimacy other than occasionally throwing you some sex to keep the gifts and attention flowing, Or even worse I get the "Let's just be friends" treatment.

Note to the ladies: When you say this to a guy, Its like kicking him in the balls, poking him in the eye, and kicking his puppy. Please just reject guys you are not interested in. Dont do the "just friends" thing. It hurts like a broken bottle of tabasco in your guts.

Next, I am not a typically social person. I hate bars, clubs, and all those kinds of places. and when i would be coaxed into going there I never met anyone that i felt like talking with let alone be friends or lovers with. Its a gathering ground for the exact opposite kind of person I m looking for. So all i can do is hope that the movies don't always lie and ill meet my dream lover in the grocery store someday. Naturally the waiting part is like Chinese water torture.

So what should i do? Where are all the good women out there? I am trapped in a sea of manipulators, drama queens, and outright prostitutes. Where in the hell are all of you?! And why the hell is it that every good one i meet is taken?! ARRGHH!

Just help me out here. give me some advice.

You should maybe go to Europe...there are definitely more atheists there that in the US, although I'm sure you could meet like minded people in big cities in the States as well.
Also diet a bit to go from chubby to normal looking...then start any activity fom arts to sports to meet new people, try online dating...keep smiling, be happy with yourself and do not let rejection deter you from trying and meeting new people.

When your spirits are low take sometimes for yourself but go back into the ring as soon as you can...

PS: you are probably resisting the idea of being close to a person either because you are putting your ideal woman on a pedestal, like an unreachable goddess or you ar too afraid to now admit your lack of experience. You have not kissed nor had sex at 27. You need to change this.

You won't get a medal for being pure and untouchable.

Well, how do you expect to meet people if you don't like to go out and when you don't see yourself as a social person? Sometimes you have to go out of your comfort zone and do things that you haven't done to meet the people and enjoy the experiences that you haven't met and experienced. All I am trying to say is that Wonder Woman won't just knock on your door one day. I am European, so the atheist thing doesn't seem like a big deal to me, what did strike me in your post though is the generalisations that you make about women, I don't think that that will get you far, mostly because that means that you have developed a certain way of seeing the people you meet which could perhaps be preventing you from actually getting to know them? I don't know where you live (is it a small town?) but where I come from there is all kinds of women, just like there is all kinds of men, but you have to date and make the effort to find the one you are most compatible with. Also, if you want to attract more female attention, perhaps you could work on the first impression you make, join a gym, dress as so to attract the women to want to date, be confident, and don't judge a book by its cover.

About what i expected. Just like any woman change who I am Change my appearance. And they say men are the shallow ones. What a joke

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Originally Posted by Cammac [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

About what i expected. Just like any woman change who I am Change my appearance. And they say men are the shallow ones. What a joke

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Honestly you don't want to be helped...you live in a fancy world where people can grow fat, unattractive, anti-social, love and sex frustrated and still hope that someone will fall for them just the way they are....not happening...if you dislike women and their expectations...either become a monk or turn to men...they are so much less shallow...

Is that the only part of our replies that you understood and noted? Well, that explains the problem...there were a number of other suggestions that you chose to ignore.... No one is saying you need to look like Brad Pitt man, but unfortunately its the first thing that people notice when they meet you. I don't know what you look like, but I know a few guys who don't take showers or go to the hairdresser and also call women shallow and wonder why they dont end up getting dates...well simply put girls don't want guys that smell bad and look like Robinson Crusoe, or at least I don't sorry, it's disgusting. It's not so hard to look good, and it doesn't even necessarily mean you need to lose weight or anything, it may just come down to dressing well or changing your haircut or joining a gym only so that your confidence is boosted a little and you have more energy and feel healthier.
Also, if you do not appreciate people's advice and comments, why even bother ask?
Have you considered the possibility that it may actually be your fault that you are still a virgin and have never been with a girl? I like how you blame ALL the women out there because it just HAS TO BE THEIR FAULT that they don't like you for who you are but you don't stop to consider the possibility that it may all actually depend on you. We decide who we are and we decide how people look at us. So far, from both your posts all I can conclude about you (or the first impression you gave at least) is that you are angry, negative, stubborn and rude...not a very good first impression to make.

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Originally Posted by sunflower77 [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

It's not so hard to look good, and it doesn't even necessarily mean you need to lose weight or anything, it may just come down to dressing well or changing your haircut or joining a gym only so that your confidence is boosted a little and you have more energy and feel healthier.

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Really? Do the clothes and hair make such a big difference that they can make an ugly guy look good? I agree that losing weight will make an overweight guy more attractive but I find it weird that hair or clothing would have much difference.
I know it doesn't work like that for women in my eyes at least. A pretty face is pretty and an ugly face is ugly no matter what they have done to the hair that grows on top of it. Clothes make even less difference. Ok, revealing clothes make a woman more attractive if she has a beautiful body in the first place but it doesn't help an ugly one.
Furthermore, if hair and clothing really do make a huge difference in guys appearence, is there a type of haircut and clothing that is considered universally attractive? They are surely a matter of taste and changing to a new style would only make a guy more attractive to some and less attractive to others, wouldn't it?

OP: you say you're rational. You surely then realise that we live in a world where appearance and social attitude matter. From your post the message that comes through is that you are highly defensive and not prepared to make an effort to adapt. What do you expect then? The world to change for you? More likely it will keep going on without you.

These are the plain facts. We are all different in more ways than one (and some more than others), but we have to live with each other, like it or not.

Make your choice: you either refuse to "change" (perhaps I should say re-adjust) some of your habits and suffer the consequences on your social life; or you *compromise* and make yourself approachable and open to people you find interesting.

There is an actual cost and a possible benefit no matter what choice you make. Which one is most suitable for you depends on your true type which obviously we cannot know (but you do). Suit yourself.

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Originally Posted by Yet another guy [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Really? Do the clothes and hair make such a big difference that they can make an ugly guy look good? I agree that losing weight will make an overweight guy more attractive but I find it weird that hair or clothing would have much difference.
I know it doesn't work like that for women in my eyes at least. A pretty face is pretty and an ugly face is ugly no matter what they have done to the hair that grows on top of it. Clothes make even less difference. Ok, revealing clothes make a woman more attractive if she has a beautiful body in the first place but it doesn't help an ugly one.
Furthermore, if hair and clothing really do make a huge difference in guys appearence, is there a type of haircut and clothing that is considered universally attractive? They are surely a matter of taste and changing to a new style would only make a guy more attractive to some and less attractive to others, wouldn't it?

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I think you misunderstood me a little. Obviously nothing does miracles but yes sometimes a small effort can bring a lot of change, especially when it comes to the way you see yourself and the confidence it may bring you. There are a lot of people out there that dont even try, thats kinda what I was talking about. If it looks like you havent even washed your hair or your clothes are wrinkled or not chosen well to fit your figure then yes it makes a huge difference in the way that women see you or at least in the way I would see someone. And obviously there is nothing that is universally attractive...people are different...but there are ways to look decent, serious, somewhat fashionable, and most importantly your age so that you attract the people that you would want to attract.

Online dating. It's great for people who don't like the bar scene.

And I don't know what state you live in, but I never thought being atheist was taboo in this country. I personally know a lot of people who are atheists (used to be one myself, in fact) and they've never been treated badly because of it. Being an atheist seems perfectly normal to me. Do you live in the Bible belt?

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It seems i either meet women who are shallow and only care for money and material goods with little interest intimacy other than occasionally throwing you some sex to keep the gifts and attention flowing

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Have you really met women like this? You say you're a virgin but then you say you know women who occasionally have sex with you to get gifts and attention? Or is this just something you've heard about and now you're making assumptions about women you don't even know?

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Or even worse I get the "Let's just be friends" treatment.

Note to the ladies: When you say this to a guy, Its like kicking him in the balls, poking him in the eye, and kicking his puppy. Please just reject guys you are not interested in. Dont do the "just friends" thing. It hurts like a broken bottle of tabasco in your guts.

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I've never actually said this to a guy, but try to understand: women who say this are trying to be polite. They're trying to spare your feelings. OK, it doesn't work, I get that. But give the girl a break, she's trying to reject you without being mean, and sometimes girls just don't know what to say.

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About what i expected. Just like any woman change who I am Change my appearance. And they say men are the shallow ones. What a joke

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All I can say is this: What you've been doing is not working. So you might want to try something different.

We need a thread about dating strategy. Seriously. You aren't the only one with this problem, doll.

How do you choose the women you approach? Note I am not asking how you *approach* them. Before even that step. How do you determine a woman is even of interest? Based on what criteria?

Change your attitude, and everything else will come naturally. :)

Alot of you assume i am bitter. Im not i am just being brutally honest. to answer a previous question....

Have you really met women like this? You say you're a virgin but then you say you know women who occasionally have sex with you to get gifts and attention? Or is this just something you've heard about and now you're making assumptions about women you don't even know?[/B]

The signs are there only a fool does not pay heed to them. Their attitude speaks volumes. I saw it happen to many friends. I try to avoid women who act like my friends exes on principle. they have nothing i want.

Aside from that, my thanks to indie reloaded for your response. I truly appreciate when people do not judge. to answer your question I try to find someone who is intellectual that is my main thing. I want to find someone to grow old and have children with. Sex is easy to get and if i ever get that desperate to end my virginity ill just pay for it and i probably will before i find any one i respect. I have found it difficult to meet intelligent, mature women. And when i do they are always taken or not interested in having children at all and that's a no no. There is something about girls who don't want kids ever that turns me off. I don't plan on being a dad next week but i want to once I get my life straight. that might be years, but that is non negotiable to me.

YOu are very welcome. A point tho from my experience: those who subscribe to "brutal honesty" tend to serve brutality more than honesty, methinks.

Cammac, I don't really have any advice beyond what has been said. I will say that I dated and married a 'nice guy' (a geek/nerd, some might say) and have been very happy for it.

BUT, if he had even hinted of the attitude you bring to the table, bitter and crude, there is no way I would have pursued anything w/him. If you want the full meal deal, you need to show some restraint and finesse, whatever your frustrations.

In fact, you might want to consider a *safe* fling if only to blow off some of your sexuality. It will make you more relaxed in the interactions that actually matter.

Good luck.

In terms of how to meet the woman w/the qualities you mention, I think you are going to have to extend yourself to some extent beyond a chance grocery aisle meeting. Have you tried searching for interesting activities at meetup.com? Or enrolling in a course w/a higher %age of females (e.g. language or fine dining/cooking)?

My point is that you need to be what you want to attract. I am imagining a lovely, quiet gal sitting at home coding on her computer and dreaming of meeting a young man such as yourself. She decides to sign up for a language or cooking class b/c a friend suggests it and she figures that even if she doesn't meet someone interesting, at least she'll have learned something interesting... create your own opportunities for success, Cammac.

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Originally Posted by Cammac [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

About what i expected. Just like any woman change who I am Change my appearance. And they say men are the shallow ones. What a joke

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This is bitterness...

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Originally Posted by Cammac [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Sex is easy to get and if i ever get that desperate to end my virginity ill just pay for it and i probably will before i find any one i respect.

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not that easy for you it seems...you should change your whole attitude because women will feel you don't like them. You have this thing going on, it's underlying in your responses...that women are either whores or the mother of my children.

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The signs are there only a fool does not pay heed to them. Their attitude speaks volumes. I saw it happen to many friends. I try to avoid women who act like my friends exes on principle. they have nothing i want.

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So you are making assumptions about women you don't know. That's OK, we all do it, but at least be aware of your tendency to judge people unfairly.

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I have found it difficult to meet intelligent, mature women. And when i do they are always taken or not interested in having children at all and that's a no no. There is something about girls who don't want kids ever that turns me off. I don't plan on being a dad next week but i want to once I get my life straight. that might be years, but that is non negotiable to me.

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Don't worry, women who don't want children aren't interested in you either. I don't want kids, so I would never date a man who does want kids. There's just something about men who expect me to have their babies that turns me off.

@ Shelly - Interesting response. Cammac describes wanting a woman who is *interested* in children. That's different from an expectation, which he didn't say.

what a troll.

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Cammac describes wanting a woman who is *interested* in children. That's different from an expectation, which he didn't say.

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I wasn't necessarily talking about him, just sharing my opinion on men who view women as vessels for their sperm. ;-) Although actually, when he uses phrases like "that's a no no" and "that is non negotiable to me," it does kind of sound like an expectation.

I don't think that guys generally expect women to have their children but many do want their own biological child and an exclusive relationship will logically narrow down the selection of potential "hosts" for their sperm.

Well, from a guys point of view and based how you described yourself, you pretty much sound like a jackass. This is likely the reason you're a virgin at your age. Most women would give you big red flag. Not judging since I don't know you but just an observation.

I mean....27 and you've never really kissed a girl? That's highly abnormal and shows there's a need for some serious therapy. Therapy is a wonderful thing btw! Seriously!

Just being honest....I'm not mocking you. I just giving you my opinion on what you wrote

It's obvious you have self esteem issues. You says it hurts so much when a girls says " let's be friends". Why? Every guy on the planet has heard that line. You move on to the next number.

I'll read the rest of the thread later but one point I just have to respond to now.

How you style your hair contribute 70% of how your face looks. So yes, new clothes and a hair cut can make a difference, and a huge one at that.

Want some evidence? When I got together with my man I thought I was going against my type. He looked nothing like my previous boyfriends. After his dad passed away he let his hair grow. Once it got past his shoulders I had a moment of "oh there you are!". His hair actually made him look more like my 'type'.

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Originally Posted by ShellyZ [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

I wasn't necessarily talking about him, just sharing my opinion on men who view women as vessels for their sperm. ;-) Although actually, when he uses phrases like "that's a no no" and "that is non negotiable to me," it does kind of sound like an expectation.

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No, he's stating a preference. A tool for selecting a type of person *before* he dates them. People who have clear preferences in dating, and make decisions on them, tend to achieve better success in finding a partner. I was very cutthroat about what I wanted in a partner--and I got it.

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I was very cutthroat about what I wanted in a partner--and I got it.

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I guess that's the difference between you and the OP. He's very clear about what he wants, and he's got nothin'. Beggars can be choosers, but they'll starve to death. The OP is so focused on what he wants in a woman that he hasn't stopped to consider the possibility that he has nothing to offer the woman of his dreams. And then he wonders why she just wants to be friends.

I think the only thing you need to change is your attitude.
By all means no offense but it's just constructive critism.

I am a geek, a big one I play World of Warcraft shout BOOM Headshot while play FPS games but during summer break I get the F out of here and go to spain where the party is, in weekends you can find me in the club. so yeah im a geek and I play green creatures with axes and bows and some magic but from what I hear a not bad looking one although when I look in the mirror I see a scronny fella with a big nose.

What im trying to say is that whatever you are from the inside dont let it affect your outside, because you are bitter no matter how hard you try to convince us all that you arent you are bitter and if you would been given the oppurtiny to downgrade a girl that's turned you down you will most definatly take it. because girls know and I'll tell you right now is that when a guy acts like you are doing right now, they taste that like blood in the water. they see right through you no matter how hard you try and think you're not showing your bitterness they WILL know it just by standing next to you.

Dont get me wrong, I don't trust women, pretty much like every girl out there (in my eyes) is out there that will stab me in the back one day. Yet I've slept with some of the most beautiful girls out there, the captain of the football team will wanna kick my ass out of jealousy. and how is it that I get that shit done?

I keep my problems with women for myself, what ever I think what ever anyone else thinks I keep it to myself. because unlike you I know from experience that if I show my true colours , a dominating controlling guy who wants to have his way that always has the correct answer I will assure you that every woman here on this planet will walk away from me with a middlefinger pointed towards me.

you have a problem and it's that you cannot control that bitter side. you express it and the brutal honesty here is that untill you control that side you will NOT get laid. so your best bet is to grab some dollars and go to the nearest prostitute.

So im saying again that im not saying this to hurt you to downgrade you to humiliate you im saying this because I AM YOU, I just learned to swallow my pride because thats what all men do to get laid what ever is on our minds , if we ever wanna score we have to keep our insecurities to ourselves. we bottle the **** that shit up and when we get some alone time we vent it. wether this is by fixing your car in the garage, kicking and punching against bags or drinking it away in the middle of the night it's our nature. (unless you're one of those pussy greenpeace people that smell flowers and get ultimate satisfaction from doing it.

Women have power and it will never change it will always stay like that.

so here's some points for you:

- Let your grudges go
- Try to get to know the women first
- Always stay polite no matter what
- If you smell bad and you know it, shower and take your mom or sister to shop some deodarants that fit you (women know best because you buy it for them and every person has a different scent)
- If you dress up like one of those O.G. computer gangster boys (with the big ass pants) change that look because it'll make you look immature. i suggest getting some nice jeans a nice clean shirt and maybe a jacket for it. dress nice and look like a real men, thats what attracts women ( and you want to attract them dont you?)

(btw i was like those geeks i had baggy pants skater shoes that make my feet look twice as big, wear those retarted shirts that are way too big) But now I dress like a gentleman and I get THAT much more compliments and that much more interest in people wanting to chill with me or something ( no im not mister popular i just dress properly)
- wash your hair, maybe change your haircut : cleaner is better, dont rush into it try asking some barbers and especially women in what they think looks nice on you, this way they will actually look at you at someone who cares a damn about how he looks + it brings you in contact with them.

- If you DONT listen to what we say, you may very well end up chasing your dream woman for the rest of your life, being unsatisfied and bitter maybe if you're lucky ending up with a girl who doesnt know the f whats shes doing with you or maybe not respect you or treat you like an equal ..



We (atleast I) dont consider you as an asshole I just think that there are somethings that i've experienced that could apply really really well in your situation. dont let anyone change your inner self.

( me being a geek ,, i like being one and being good with computers) stay true to who you are but know you're weak points try to fix those points , upgrading yourself to the ultimate love machine that never runs out of power :)

Adding some shit to that about looks and stuff.


If you observe you're dream woman closely and look at what SHES looking (other guys) and when she kisses one or shows interest in one , look at him. look at how he looks how he talks how he does. Learn from that.
Im not a fag or anything but I check out other guys ALL the time, because im applying the stuff that they know to the stuff that I know that makes me have the advantage over HIM.
Try it you wont regret it, go to a bar or something or someplace else where you can meet people, try to see where some guy fails at his flirt with a girl and try to do overrule him by doing the correct thing.

I'll explain it in your language.

Use the correct build order to win. if your build fails you will fail too.

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Originally Posted by ShellyZ [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

I guess that's the difference between you and the OP. He's very clear about what he wants, and he's got nothin'. Beggars can be choosers, but they'll starve to death. The OP is so focused on what he wants in a woman that he hasn't stopped to consider the possibility that he has nothing to offer the woman of his dreams. And then he wonders why she just wants to be friends.

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Well, there is the question of attitude. I was in a hurry when I made my last post. 'Cutthroat' implies I was mean to the guys I didn't date. I wasn't, I just knew fairly quickly if there was a fit or not and I didn't waste time (theirs or mine) dating if I didn't think so.

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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

I just knew fairly quickly if there was a fit or not and I didn't waste time (theirs or mine) dating if I didn't think so.

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I wonder, what sort of things can you determine about a potential partner to deem them fit or unfit fairly quickly?

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what sort of things can you determine about a potential partner to deem them fit or unfit fairly quickly?

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I assume she's talking about major deal-breakers. Like if the person is a drug addict and you're not, or if the person wants 6 kids and you don't want any, or if the person hates animals and you love them, etc. And you know, sometimes you meet a person, and within 10 minutes you realize you can't stand them. It's possible for 2 people to be so incompatible that it's obvious right away.

Actually I looked for more subtle things: how he treated others, his behaviour when we went out, was he mannerly, did he have interesting things to say. The major dealbreakers (habits, hygiene) would let me know whether we would even go on a date. I also had concepts I would raise to see how he responded, tho I didn't think of them in such terms at the time. I'm making it sound more manipulative than it actually was. I just knew what I wanted and didn't compromise.

BTW, I'm sure I missed out on some nice guys as a consequence. Actually, I know this for a fact. But that's the tradeoff. So many ppl waste so much time w/partners who aren't going to work out anyway and (I think) they tend to know this early on but hope it isn't so.

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I also had concepts I would raise to see how he responded,

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Off Topic but give us some examples? Interesting how much thought girls put into dating.