Started marriage counseling today

Yeah I did. Didn't go with the wife to visit family last weekend because I saw it as an opportunity to be away from her anger issues. She got angry, as expected, she got home, we discussed, then she got angry once again because I was trying to avoid her anger [???]. She ended the conversation abruptly by saying "well I'm going to get off the phone since I'm such a bitch". Ending conversations after trying to establish herself as a victim in any given situation seems to be her forte.

At any rate I found a counselor whose rates will not rape my butthole as hard as the rest (only $100 per hour... yay). I made sure to choose a woman so that it wouldn't look like I was trying to look for male validation or something like that. The visit wasn't really what I expected though. We really didn't get to the meat of anything. We kinda just talked. I do see that it is going to be helpful to have a moderator there during discussions. The wife was only halfway cooperative, especially when the same points that I have been saying forever were echoed by the counselor. I also found out that the insurance company rep lied to me on the phone. My insurance company does cover counseling, just not couples counseling... so much time wasted because of that jerk. I could have been in counseling using my insurance for two years now. I will have to pay out of pocket for any couples sessions though, which doesn't sting nearly as badly.

I guess one question that I'd have is how long did it take to "get anywhere" with counseling? (Obviously directed toward those who have actually gone to counseling or knew someone who did.) Our counselor said four months, and then we'd all reevaluate the situation and go from there. I just don't want this to turn into a money train for the counselor.

Glad to hear you're doing something with a mediator. Keep in mind that you are the boss of you. If you find that things aren't improving then, you pull the plug. If you're both reaping something good from discussing things in front of a (hopefully) impartial mediator well then.. Yea and you be the judge when you think you've run the course. It's that simple. :O)

Hope it does you both well, Incognito.

The truth is that most people wait too long to seek counseling, and then are upset that it doesn't work. I think it is most effective when you address little problems before they become big problems.

Still, if you are both motivated, it can be useful.

I wish you good luck.

I'm down for whatever. If by discussing the problems with the counselor I [can] somehow resolve the brokenness then ok. If not and we both just need to move on, then ok to that too. Since I found out that this is an affordable option I'd be a dick to not explore it though.

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Originally Posted by Incognito [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

I guess one question that I'd have is how long did it take to "get anywhere" with counseling? (Obviously directed toward those who have actually gone to counseling or knew someone who did.) Our counselor said four months, and then we'd all reevaluate the situation and go from there. I just don't want this to turn into a money train for the counselor.

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Took me about 5 months before it really started sinking in... 6+ before it really started making a difference. Hang in there.

Wow. I'm really going to have to space the couples visits then. Ah well...

Tell your wife to pay for her own counselling visits.

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Originally Posted by vashti [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

The truth is that most people wait too long to seek counseling, and then are upset that it doesn't work. I think it is most effective when you address little problems before they become big problems.

Still, if you are both motivated, it can be useful.

I wish you good luck.

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Ditto. Good luck, Cog. Sometimes counselling can help one decide whether and how to end ones present situation. Its not a miracle cure tho.

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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Tell your wife to pay for her own counselling visits.

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She couldn't if she wanted to. She hasn't worked since she was in a head on collision almost a year and a half ago. I think that is part of the problem as well. She sits in the house all day doing nothing and expects me to be some kind of activities planner when I walk in the door. I'd give her money to spend, but I'm stuck paying for all the bills, her car insurance and now her car payment as well.

Another point to bring up to the counselor I guess.

I was in marriage counseling for 3 years of a 5 year marriage. In the end, it worked perfectly. We decided we didn't belong together and were beating a dead horse. Sometimes it takes a while to see the obvious. It was mostly my own denial, I didn't want to admit defeat and I didn't want to lose my idea of a "perfect" family. Your wife's manipulative behavior points to personality disorder, possibly borderline. Sometimes a traumatic brain injury can cause such, but usually it is from an abusive childhood. But congrats on moving to another level.

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Originally Posted by dem862 [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

It was mostly my own denial, I didn't want to admit defeat and I didn't want to lose my idea of a "perfect" family.

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Great comment. Rep for you!

I think the time limit on counseling working or not working would depend on the person/couple.

Let's say for example, YOU are getting what the counselor is talking about, but your wife isn't letting it all sink in. She might take longer (or maybe not at all) to "get it". While you may take a shorter amount of time.

I think it's all in how you both go in to counseling, with an open mind & heart. If you both are open to it then it might take a short time. If you both aren't open to it, then it might take longer or not at all. Hope I explained myself OK...this all sounded good in my head while typing...lol

I understand perfectly. Basically you can't be helped unless you want help and allow yourself to be helped. Judging from my wifes reaction though, she will be the determining factor. I foresee it taking a lot of counseling for her to give up her angry tendencies. Fortunately this counselor also deals with anger management. Then there is my wife's lack of sex drive, but there again this counselor supposedly deals with those issues as well.

I bet your wife is angry because shes very unhappy. Everytime ive seen a couple do counseling its resulted in termination of the relationship.

Incongnito you can choose to go in with a positive attitude which will help you to succeed in what you want to accomplish or you can go in with a nagative attitude which isn't really productive to accomplishing much of anything.

Whether this helps you and your wife to come together depends on your's and hers goals and willingness to listen and change up poor attitudes that have become habit.

Be positive, strive for productive meetings that teach you both.

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Originally Posted by misombra [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

I bet your wife is angry because shes very unhappy. Everytime ive seen a couple do counseling its resulted in termination of the relationship.

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That's sad. I'd hate to think that I'm spending my money for nothing. If it hadn't been for at least one couple that I personally know trying counseling and remaining together I'd probably not have tried it at all.

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Originally Posted by Wakeup [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Incongnito you can choose to go in with a positive attitude which will help you to succeed in what you want to accomplish or you can go in with a nagative attitude which isn't really productive to accomplishing much of anything.

Whether this helps you and your wife to come together depends on your's and hers goals and willingness to listen and change up poor attitudes that have become habit.

Be positive, strive for productive meetings that teach you both.

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I'd have given you some rep for that, but I must "spread more around first", lol. Anyway, yeah, I get that you can only accomplish as much as you are willing to try. For me this will be relatively easy because if the counselor points it out then I'll work on it. The problem will be if my wife doesn't work on her end. That is what has been happening for the longest time. I'll try to be more "warm" and outgoing in certain areas, but then she'll get pissed at something as simple as her cooking dinner later than she wanted (which actually happened last week) and treat everyone like we killed her puppy. That immediately puts the brakes on whatever progress I made and I go into emotional disconnect and avoidance.

We'll see whether the counselor saying that same things that I've been saying FOREVER makes any difference because of coming from a different person. Even if it does, its still sad because it means that she thinks less of what I say despite the truth and relevance in/of it.

Sounds like you are in this to 'win' from the tone of your posts. I don't think that's what Wakeup means by a positive attitude.

Cliche, but fits: do you want to be right or happy?

Anyway, counselling that leads to a break isn't a waste if its the right decision. If you already know you want to stay married, then you are wasting your time w/counselling, IMO. Just do the things you already know will lead to a better situation and find the self-control to avoid getting each other's back up. Same for your wife, but if your marriage is detente then someone has to extend the olive branch. Again, its not about 'right' its about happy. Like the Nike ads: just do it. B/c motivation for your efforts will come once you start seeing some results. Most people think that motivation works the other way around (motivation comes from results), but that's not true early on. You must prime the pump and your well has been empty for a long time. This will not be a quick fix, as Vash already said.

Sorry, I have to disagree. Sometimes it is about "right", and not so that I can rub it in her face. It is because I have been saying logical, correct observations about her behavior for a long time. She just doesn't like the fact that I speak up instead of simply accepting her anger issues. It was validating to hear the counselor agree that punishing everyone else when you're not actually angry at them is not healthy... like I've been saying forever.

I also didn't mean to sound like I was somehow going to "win". It's just that I know I can do this. Personal change is something I easily do if I have the will. I haven't had the will in a long time because of what I mentioned in my last post. Also, as far as motivation goes, I am motivated already because if a professional voices the things that I have been saying to her forever she might actually listen and the marriage improve. The only problems that I have ever had with her were her anger issues and her lack of sex drive. Money? Nope. Her family? Nope. Control? Well yeah, a little at first, but that was resolved.

I've got no problem working on personal problem areas as long as I am not constantly confronted with the same tired, troublesome issues. Especially the anger.

Okay. But consider that I'm not the one in marriage counselling. +20yrs and going strong. I might actually know something you don't?

Maybe you should bring this up with your counsellor. Which makes me think? *Do* you have any good marriage role-models that you can learn from? That's a very good indicator for successful marriage (parents have good marriage).

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Originally Posted by IndiReloaded [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Okay. But consider that I'm not the one in marriage counselling. +20yrs and going strong. I might actually know something you don't?

Maybe you should bring this up with your counsellor. Which makes me think? *Do* you have any good marriage role-models that you can learn from? That's a very good indicator for successful marriage (parents have good marriage).

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Don't take my disagreement as somehow disrespecting you or trying to say that you don't know anything. You said that my tone sounded as though it was about me winning, which is your opinion. I explained that isn't the case, so I don't know why you sarcastically ask if you know something that I don't.

I will definitely bring up my feelings of validation during our sessions. I doubt she'd say it is inappropriate, but if she does then I'll ask for an explanation and go from there. My parents I will try to sum up quickly. They're still together, never split up, no abuse, no major problems that I ever knew about growing up. Do they have problems? Yeah, everyone does. I didn't really pick up on them until I was an adult though.

So you think its all her and your behavior has little to do with your problems? You just want to give the least amount of money possible so hopefully this third party can tell her how wrong she is?

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Originally Posted by Incognito [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

(from post 18) .... if the counselor points it out then I'll work on it.

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Originally Posted by misombra [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

So you think its all her and your behavior has little to do with your problems? You just want to give the least amount of money possible so hopefully this third party can tell her how wrong she is?

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I'll simply point out my partial quote above instead of jumping down your throat like I planned to do. Your question seems both negative and sarcastic, but no that is not my intent. I wouldn't spend $100 per hour just to be told that I'm right, especially if I'm not going to rub her face in it. Part of it IS about her wrong behavior though, there is no getting around that. She has always been like this with her anger, friends and family have the same stories. The difference with me is that, being married to her, I see it a lot more and can no longer sit idly by while I get white hair from it happening. My hope is that by a professional pointing out that her behavior is not healthy, and hopefully offering alternatives, that she will want to use alternate anger management methods. If she doesn't it is probably over.

As far as my involvement in her problems I am sure that I contribute, but as I pointed out they existed far longer than I've been around.

I just don't see you approaching this whole thing in good faith. If you think she needs anger management counselling, then that should be the focus of your efforts. But, you sound very passive-aggressive to me. I'm not saying she doesn't have issues, but I suspect you also don't make an effort to avoid stomping on her hot buttons either. It takes two to tango, as has been said. Could be wrong, tho. Anyway, at least you are getting some professional input, good luck with it.

Thanks Indi. I don't know how I could have put my words and intentions more plainly, but I'll try. We both have things to work on, but my progress with my issues is typically halted by her constant anger. This counselor deals with family counseling, anger management, sex therapy and a few other areas that one or both of us would benefit from. Being passive in this situation would help no one. Being aggressive would be counter productive. If what I am doing is being passive-aggressive I don't see another way to go about it, although I think I am somewhere between aggressive and passive-aggressive. At any rate, yes, her anger is a big issue and part of the reason that this counselor appealed to me was that anger management was one of her specialty areas (along with family counseling and sex therapy). If that factor makes my actions passive-aggressive.... so what?

Also, even though I know you won't believe me, 90% of the time our arguments result from an issue that isn't related to me in the slightest making her angry. She then treats everyone like they had something to do with it by ignoring them, being snappy, mumbling under her breath, slamming everything and giving off a general aura of negativity. That is when I shut myself off, avoid her, and if she continues to treat me badly I occasionally get nasty. Typically I just avoid her and keep silent though. It takes two to tango, but in this case she starts the dance alone and I simply get dragged into it.

I'll give an update when we finally get into the meat of the counseling.

Assertiveness is always better than aggression, passiveness, or passive-aggression. People often confuse assertiveness with aggression, but they are different. Google it up.

I think it's entirely possible that your wife is causing a majority of the problems in your marriage, but proving that to her isn't going to save your marriage. Hopefully the therapist will be able to help her identify and work on her problems without making her feel defensive.

Well vincenzo when grading personalities I have only seen the three categories, passive, passive-aggressive and aggressive. I've never seen assertive as a category, although I do agree with you.

Also, yes, the plan is for both of us to have our problems brought out plainly by the counselor, and hopefully be given healthier options to deal with anger, deal with someone who is angry and so on.

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Originally Posted by Incognito [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Well vincenzo when grading personalities I have only seen the three categories, passive, passive-aggressive and aggressive. I've never seen assertive as a category, although I do agree with you.

Also, yes, the plan is for both of us to have our problems brought out plainly by the counselor, and hopefully be given healthier options to deal with anger, deal with someone who is angry and so on.

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I took an anger management class years ago. The class used the four categories, and emphasized that the only good one was the assertive one. I'm glad that I took that class, it saved my job and my career.

And from the perspective of my domestic violence classes it makes sense, though they didn't use that terminology - it's ok to be assertive, to say clearly and without ambiguity what it is you want... in fact it's the preferred method of communication.

It works, too.

Hope I'm not cross posting. Anyway if it is ok to be assertive and clear, why was me stating that I cannot deal with her projecting negativity at uninvolved parties not ok? I didn't curse, or yell. I just stated it as a plain fact.

I replied, but someplace else.