So Lets Talk About Feminism and Misogyny

We'll let me start by saying I don't completely understand feminism. It is a very touchy subject and it is probably a subject that I will always manage to put my foot in my mouth.

Let's start with the story that started this thought process. I have a friend (Carli) who is going to a school to learn how to be a comic illustrator. She is very into the nerd/geek culture and goes to conventions and events. Female characters in the comic world are almost always portrayed as sex objects or at least heros who also happen to be super sexy. I assumed she would like the movie Sucker Punch (watch the [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dzikBZTUy8"]trailer[/URL] if you haven't seen it yet) because it is basically an excuse to show off pretty girls and cool cgi effects.

It turns out that she thinks that it is demeaning to women and I found that very confusing because the stuff she draws for her comics can be very sexy. She draws women just like all of the professional comic illustrators draw women. And when she goes to conventions she dresses up in the costumes of very sexy comic book characters. So I don't understand why she would be against sucker punch.

So the thing I don't get about feminism and misogyny is that if a guy watches a movie like Sin City, Kick Ass, Sucker Punch, or any other movie lacking in plot but contains sexy female characters it is a misygynist film and since we enjoy films like that we are misogynists. But I know women that have gone to a movie because a particular male actor is in it (Lord of the Rings - the elf guy, Alice and Wonderland - Johnny Depp). How is that any different?

Along a similar vane (vain?) it seems like women want to be hot and lusted for. If they get a new dress, haircut, or tan and you don't compliment them they get angry. If you say "I think that dress makes you look very attractive" to a girlfriend, friend, or acquaintance they will pretty darn happy. But if you make that same comment to a random lady walking down the street you are a misogynist. How does that work?

Here is the facebook conversation about Sucker Punch. I don't see how McKenna's reasoning works. Just because there are pretty CGI effects and hot women doesn't mean it is a misogynist film.

[Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

The same director created the movie 300. It could be argued that in terms of the hotness of the characters that both 300 and Sucker Punch show off the male/female gender in very sexy ways that are unrealistic and degrading. But no guy would complain about going to see 300 because it is degrading for men.

I am not saying Sucker Punch and 300 are the same movie because there are a lot of other things in Sucker Punch that make is misogynist. For example in 300 the men are manly, powerful, and heroic in every sense. In Sucker Punch the women were basically prostitutes and captive to the male pimps. Not to mention the only way women get their way is to dance for the male characters so Sucker Punch is a misogynist film. In Sucker Punch women are clearly less powerful than men. I'm not arguing that.

But I guess sometimes I don't understand what makes a film a misogynist film and when I'm being a misogynist. When is it ok to be a misogynist? Because clearly when I have a girl friend at times she wants to be viewed as a sex object. It seems like men can be misogynists just by going to a movie about hot girls, but if a girl watches 300 to see guys in tiny red speedos with CGI abs she is just being a girl. And my friend Carli can draw sexy women in her comics and dress up as a sexy character for conventions but if I recommend that a girl sees Sucker Punch I'm the douche bag. How come she can enjoy female sexuality and I can't?

It seems like a double standard. (I'm as ready as I'll ever be for the scathing remarks)

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Originally Posted by BFTrick [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Along a similar vane (vain?) it seems like women want to be hot and lusted for. If they get a new dress, haircut, or tan and you don't compliment them they get angry. If you say "I think that dress makes you look very attractive" to a girlfriend, friend, or acquaintance they will pretty darn happy. But if you make that same comment to a random lady walking down the street you are a misogynist. How does that work?

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Did Carli give you that interpretation of what a misogynist is? Complimenting a strange woman hardly makes you a misogynist. Is this a conversation, or occurrence you have had with female friends? If so, it's probably safe to say they are jealous. And women get angry over not being complimented? Really?

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And my friend Carli can draw sexy women in her comics and dress up as a sexy character for conventions but if I recommend that a girl sees Sucker Punch I'm the douche bag. How come she can enjoy female sexuality and I can't?

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Maybe she's just so incredibly independent and such a hardcore feminist, that she will choose her own films and dictate what is appropriate and what isn't, thankyouverymuch.

She is probably just studying feminism in school, or something. The pendulum swings far in the opposite direction before it comes to rest in the middle.

(I considered seeing Suckerpunch just because they had a Silversun Pickups song in a trailer, by the way. I won't, though.)

Anyway, it seems that some women hate it when men look at them the same way they, the women, do. By the way, this is not trying portray all of us as hypocritical meanie-heads (yeah, that just happened), this is just what I've noticed from my personal experience.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a girl/woman. Some other ones seem like what I said above, though.

Also, I remember this one kid in high school that loved to draw, so he drew some girl, one day. The girls around him found him creepy for drawing someone of a different sex. The next day, those girls were drawing some random guys. Double standards. Not cool.

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Originally Posted by Spring Haze [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

Did Carli give you that interpretation of what a misogynist is? Complimenting a strange woman hardly makes you a misogynist. Is this a conversation, or occurrence you have had with female friends? If so, it's probably safe to say they are jealous. And women get angry over not being complimented? Really?

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I have been yelled at plenty of times by girlfriends for not noticing something new. It usually goes something like this: "Did you not notice X!? I did it for you! Ugh. Why do I even do things for you."

Carli and I never had a conversation about what a misogynist is and she never called me a misogynist but through other mediums (facebook, tumblr, hanging out, etc) it is what I imagine her opinion is. And through her comment on facebook it seems that she was offended that the movie "only empowers women that are sexy".

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Originally Posted by vashti [Dear Guest/Member you have to reply to see the link.click here to register]

She is probably just studying feminism in school, or something. The pendulum swings far in the opposite direction before it comes to rest in the middle.

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Maybe. It just seems weird that she is so into comics where it is just as prevalent and she is fine with it. And I feel bad because I actually invited McKenna to that movie with my group of friends. And it seemed like she enjoyed it but I guess I made a mistake with that one. (And in full disclosure I have a crush on McKenna)

I was fully expecting to come back here this morning have dozens of remarks about how I am the biggest d-bag in the world. It is nice to know I'm not a total moron. Of course I misjudged McKenna and made a mistake bringing her to Sucker Punch but not a total moron. Just mostly moron. :)

I still don't quite get what makes a movie misogynist. I am sure that some people will think every movie is misogynist and some will think no movie is misogynist.

Here's how I see the difference between Sucker Punch and what your friend does: it isn't so much the sexy costumes, it's the intention behind them.

Feminism is partially about empowerment. The hope is that when women are dressing in sexy costumes, they are doing so because it makes they themselves feel good, and are not necessarily doing it primarily/solely for the benefit of males. Women can be portrayed as sexy in movies/comics by men without being labeled as misogynistic IF the writer/direction takes the time to create a fully formed character BEHIND the sexy. If the character is nothing BUT sexy, that is bordering on sexist, as it suggests women are there just to be looked at, and don't have rich inner lives of their own.

If your friend is thoughtful in her feminist theory, she's applying this concept to her characters: drawing sexy women who are defined by something other than their outward appearance. A non-sexist writer is one who can portray a beautiful woman without suggesting that beauty is the only valuable or worthwhile trait about her.

Additionally, I don't think Sucker Punch deserves a sexist label because of the costumes necessarily. Personally, I found it deeply misogynistic because of the culture AROUND the costumes. Where is the only place the girls have power/can fight back? In their fantasy world. But how do they get to their fantasy world? By dancing and putting men in a trance. It means that the girls' power is linked to their sexuality, and that the power is controlled by males: if the males don't succumb to their sexuality, the women are powerless. See how it makes sexuality through the eyes of males the only way to power for these female characters?

Let's look at another film by Snyder, 300. This movie had a LOT of beefcake in it. No denying there was much eye candy. And while this was kind of lampooned a lot in the media, you'll remember that the physical attractiveness of the Spartans was kind of a side point. The main point was that they were brave and strong. These qualities LEAD them to being physically attractive (they were good soldiers -> they got physically fit.) They also owned their own destiny, their own power. For the females in Sucker Punch, all of their defining traits come from their sexuality, and it's a sexuality that they don't even necessarily control (they have no choice about going into the mad house/brothel.)

Yeah, it is a red herring to try to create a connection between sexuality and feminism or mysogyny. Feminism does not have any beef with being sexual or enjoying your sexuality or being attracted to sexy things. Mysogyny is not about sexuality and being a prude doesn't impact mysogyny.

Feminism is just the belief that men and women are of equal value. Ideally, one day that thought will be so natural and pervasive that the term "feminism" will lose meaning. A comic artist could very easily draw male and female characters who are sexy and still work to give the female characters strength and value equal to the strength and value of the male characters.

Mysogyny is the belief that females are less valuable than men, or that women are only good for certain things. The idea that women should leave politics to the men and stay barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen is classic mysogyny. The idea that womwn's power comes only from their ability to seduce men and take "their" power is mysogynist.

I really don't see Carli calling you a misogynist in that post, but rather commenting on her assumptions about a movie. And unless there's more you haven't posted McKenna didn't say it either. She just expressed her critique of the film

I think female sexuality and misogyny are in two different veins. And a movie about hot women doing hot women things I think it bothers women who wish they had the balls to be that way. Not doing skank things but being comfortable with their body to embrace they sexiness.

You need a good balance of both and if Carli and McKenna are as cool as you have portrayed them I don't think they think you're a d-bag for liking a movie about sexy girls. They just don't want to see a movie about sexy girls is what it sounded like. So I guess my advice would be don't automatically peg them as super feminists for not wanting to look at boobs. You probably don't want to see a movie about hot dudes doing hot things and we'll safety assume it's just not your thing rather than insist your homophobic.

Make Sense?

To me it's simple really which may or may not make any sense at all since it really is just a big damn contradiction. I'm compensating.

When a man does what you list x,y and z he's labelled a miso... whatever. This happens EVERYWHERE sexy ladies in your face all the time, constantly everywhere we go. For women a movie with sexy male star? Not 'rare' but boatloads more rare then sexy ladies. So hell yes, I go and I make sure I enjoy the god damn shit out of it. Why? because it doesn't happen often and is a real treat for the tables to be turned. So basically I'm compensating. Hypocrite I guess damn so, but until it's a level playing field in terms of sexism of both men and women I will continue to overcompensate.