Is my girlfriend refuses to sign a pre-nup, should we not get married?

[ironpony]

We are not technically not married yet but we have talked about getting married often. I was going to propose to her this weekend actually, and she new it, cause I hinted that I was going to, rather obviously. But she brought up whether or not I would ask for a pre-nup if we got married. I considered it on my own, and was going to bring it up later on in the engagement, but she brought it now.

She became very upset and started throwing up even when I said yes, I wanted one. She said that if she were to marry me with a pre-nup signed, she would not have children with me cause there is no way she would bring children into that type of marriage.

I talked about it with my closest woman friend and she said that if she were in my gf's position, she would not sign one, because if a man asks a woman to sign one, it shows me has questionable intentions.

Was this a jerk move on my part? It's just my gf doesn't have any money hardly. She lives from paycheck to paycheck and has 50 dollars only in her bank account right now. Where as I have enough money to buy a house, which I am looking for right now. So with this current situation, I thought it would be best to say yes to one, just in case.

Is that wrong or negative of me? She says I have till next month to withdraw the pre-nup request, or she will break up with me, cause it's not worth continuing therefore. Or if she marries me, she will definitely not have kids, she says as a result of it. What do you think?

[melancholia]

Honestly, I do not think you are in the wrong here. Protecting both of your assets by signing a pre-nup is beneficial to both of you. I can see how people confuse the suggestion of a pre-nup as a suggestion that the marriage may fail... but guess what, chances are likely that it will. I am not saying your relationship couldn't last a lifetime, but the statistics on marriage and divorce prove that those chances are high. It's my opinion that people who freak out at the idea of a pre-nup don't actually understand what a pre-nup is for. It's about protecting what is yours from before you enter a marriage, it has nothing to do with the strength of your relationship. I think signing a pre-nup is smart, and it's actually stupid not to sign one, for both parties involved.

To be honest, it could even appear that your girlfriend is selfish and using you for your money. I'm not saying that she is, but I'm saying there's more than one way to look at this, and you are not the bad guy here. Nobody needs to be the "bad guy" when discussing marriage and protecting your assets.

I think you should seek the guidance of a lawyer, so that they can explain how a pre-nup works. Suggest to your girlfriend that you want to look into it so that you can make a decision together, that suits both of you. If she isn't even willing to consider your position on this, then I think you need to seriously reevaluate whether this is a woman you want to marry. As much as it is important for you to listen to her and do your best to give her what she needs from you, she needs to do the same for you.

Hopefully you can try again to broach this subject to her. Try bringing it up at a neutral time, using calm language, and see if that gets you anywhere. However, do NOT just roll over and say, "Okay honey, we don't need to talk about this again", because this is a serious discussion you both need to have if you are serious about marriage.

[TheEvilJester]

I think melancholia hit the nail right on the head. Couldn't have said it any better myself. Maybe if this was decades ago, I could understand her attitude towards a pre-nup. These days OVER HALF of marriages in the United States end in divorce. I don't know the stats in Canada or any other country, but at least in the US, over half end in divorce. That means that more marriages wind up NOT working than those that do last.

I think her reaction is extremely unfair and immature. Frankly, the extreme reaction she had almost causes me personally to wonder if the lady doth protest too much. In other words, it gives me the impression that she's after your money. That she's what some people call a "gold digger."

If you two do get the chance to discuss it again, one thing I would suggest is to make it clear to her that you aren't asking because you think the marriage won't last. You very much do believe it will last.... but you just want to be sure you are BOTH protected if for any reason it does not. That, I think, is the stigma too many people have about pre-nuptial agreements. They think getting one is like admitting you think the marriage won't work out. The thing is, in most cases that is not the point at all. Why would you be going into the marriage in the first place if you didn't think it was going to work out? It is just making sure you can protect yourself if, God forbid, it doesn't work out.

As melancholia suggests, you should consider talking to a lawyer. It would even be a good idea to talk to one together so it is something you both do together. Frankly, the pre-nup should be something that protects BOTH of you in the event that things don't work out. If done well, the point of a pre-nup shouldn't be "Person X gets everything and Person Y gets nothing." It should just make sure that both parties get a fair deal. That nobody is screwed over in the process.

To be honest, I think more people should consider pre-nuptial agreements. Instead of it having such a stigma, it should just be considered part of getting married. Divorce can get so ugly. Better to have a contingency plan that says, God forbid, if this doesn't work out, we both leave the situation with a fair settlement.

[joshdavids1]

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[ironpony]

Okay thanks. I have asked other people, but a lot of them say that I do not have enough money to warrant asking a woman for a pre-nup. I have 200K, and that's not a lot, but it's still something isn't it? I guess I do not feel totally comfortable marrying someone without some sort of protection just in case of a divorce, but while still trying to be romantic and optomistic at the same time.

But others tell me that I am being too self-righteous over an amount of money, which is nothing, and that is why pretty much usually rich people get pre-nups, where as I am making too big of a deal out of it, cause I only have 200K. What do you think?

But ever since she didn't like me wanting a pre-nup, I am on damage control now and have to make a decision. Either I tell her that she signs it, or I can't marry her, or I should propose to her first, which could give her re-assurance that I do want to marry her, and then bring up the pre-nup again later, if that's better.

I have to pick one of these two options or she will leave me possibly. Which is the better option to let her know that I love her, and for her to see things more positively?

[TheEvilJester]

....I think maybe I need to live in Canada. Who the Hell are these people telling you 200K is not that much? Maybe this is different in Canada, but I think most people in the US will never even see 200K in their lifetime. If you ask me, 200K is certainly a significant savings and you certainly should be concerned with protecting that. I know we are talking about the Canadian dollar here vs. the US dollar, but that is still significant.

Again, it isn't about you being greedy, it is about you ensuring you are reasonably protected. Now, I hope others have some thoughts as well because I'm not 100% sure on this next part, so I can only offer what I think.....

However, given her extreme reaction, I don't necessarily think you should propose to her before you two discuss it again and can come to some mutual agreement. Maybe it is just me, but I don't think you should propose to her and then later drop this on her again. She already reacted so negatively. If you propose without again discussion, she may assume that means you have dropped the idea. When you then later bring it up, she may think you were intending to entrap her into feeling forced to accept it even though that was not your intention.

Again, I would just suggest you talk to her again, but this time prepare a little first. Again, you want her to understand that you don't mean any insult in asking. You don't mean in any way to imply that you are asking because you expect the marriage won't work. With every fiber of your being you want it to last and you do think it will last. All the same, you just want HER to be protected just as much as you should anything unfortunate ever happen. Make it clear that you'd want to do this WITH her so you can come up with something that you will both approve.

Bottom line, if she's still dead set against it, then that may honestly be enough reason for you to second guess whether you do want to proceed after all. I mean, that would have to be your decision. If you'd still want to marry her anyway, then maybe you go ahead and do it. Still, if I had brought the idea up and somebody was THAT opposed, I think that would honestly worry me as to why they would be SO vehemently against it. I'd find that reaction a little suspect.

The idea isn't/shouldn't be that you say she gets nothing if you to break up. The idea should be that it is a pre-arranged agreement that you both feel is fair in the event, God forbid, that something should happen.

[melancholia]

Prenuptial agreements are designed to protect individuals' assets before entering a marriage. It doesn't matter if you have $2, $200,000, or $2 Million, a prenup is designed to protect both parties should the marriage not work out. Again, most marriages do end up in divorce, so it absolutely boggles my mind to think that not everyone would want to protect themselve, should the worst case scenario arise. You are free to do whatever you choose. If you want to give into the pressure of other people, then go ahead and don't bother getting a prenup. But if it is something you think is important, then I think you should look into it a lot more before you cast it aside and take the advice of people who don't have to face the consequences of your decisions.

[smackie9]

A prenup is like an insurance policy/will. It not only protects assets but also lays out agreement on custody of the kids, their financial well being, how the assets will be divided, etc. This provides security if in the event you divorce, everything is already settled, so you can avoid going to court and unnecessary lawyer fees. Too many women think it's a selfish mans way of leaving her out of her entitlement, leaving her in the poor house, when it's the opposite. She's being narrow minded, she has no clue what a prenup actually entails.

[TheEvilJester]

I think that's actually a really good way to think of it, relating it to insurance or a will. You get car insurance not because you expect to get into an accident, you get it so you know you are protected just in case you do. Of course, as it relates to a will, we all know eventually we are all going to die.... but you still don't tend to write up a will expecting to die tomorrow. Usually, people write up a will so they know their money/possessions will go to who that want in the event that they do die.

Well, just like both those examples, a prenup is not meant to be something you get because you just expect the marriage isn't going to work. Why in the Hell would you even marry the person if you didn't think it was going to work? A prenup is meant to be something you get so BOTH parties are protected IF the marriage does not work. It is meant to take care of all of the decisions in advance so if, God forbid, the marriage did end, you don't have to go through all of that with the fresh hurt feelings of a relationship ending. That can be the WORST time to decide those things because people can often act petty out of hurt and be extremely unfair/vindictive.

As I said, basically my personal advice would be to try talking to her about it again. But, this time make it more clear that you don't mean it the way it seems she thinks you do. Make it clear as well that it is a process you want to go through WITH her so you can BOTH be happy with the final agreement. If she's still vehemently opposed, then you decide whether or not you want to proceed anyway. Though, if she can't be reasonable about that, I myself would worry if her intentions were noble.

[ironpony]

Okay thanks. Well what if my gf refuses to see a prenup that way, and either I marry her without one, or she gives the ultimatum of not marrying at all. Should I say no prenup, no marriage, or choose love instead?

[TheEvilJester]

That would be up to you and what feels right to you. Though, let me just say this.... I don't think it is right to call it choosing between a prenup and love. That's not necessarily fair to say of yourself. IF she's unwilling to bend, it is more of a decision over whether you feel she is right enough for you that it is worth marrying her without the prenup, or whether her attitude over the prenup (or even other factors if any do exist) just give you too much pause to believe she is necessarily right for you.

You wouldn't be wrong to find it concerning if she is SO vehemently opposed to the idea of a prenup. I mean, if you honestly feel 100% sure about her anyway (not that you ever can be 100% these days, but if you are at least as close as possible) then maybe you proceed with marrying her anyway. That would be up to you. To be honest, I don't think you'd be wrong if that was enough to make you think twice.... but I also don't think you'd be wrong if you decided it wasn't important enough and you married her anyway.

Without being closer to the situation, it is hard for us to really judge accurately if she is opposed to the idea for nefarious reasons, or if she is just giving into the stigma the idea of prenups have in general. Good luck to you either way. Whatever happens, I hope it works out for the best for you, even if it unfortunately shapes up in a way that maybe doesn't seem great at first.

[dontaskme]

I don't know what your laws are in Canada re: pre-nup but the laws here in the US differ by State. In most cases, any property accumulated prior to marriage, as long as you keep it under your name alone (even during your marriage) should remain your property and your future spouse is not entitled to it. Most prenuptial agreement covers the distribution of marital properties (meaning, assets accumulated during marriage) in case of divorce.

Quite honestly, $200,000 is really not a significant amount of money. If you can't trust your GF not to leave you right away, just don't marry her.

[TheEvilJester]

...Where does this attitude keep coming from that $200,000 is not a significant amount of money? How in the blue Hell is that not a significant amount of money? Maybe I'm wrong, but I am pretty sure most people will never see that amount of money in their lives. At least not in the US (so, I don't know, maybe it is different in Canada). Hell, I am actually really good at saving and have a pretty good amount saved already, so it is conceivable I COULD eventually save up that much (God willing, if my financial situation only improves and never worsens), but it would still take me a while. That is, like, a life savings worthy amount of money.

[dontaskme]

...Where does this attitude keep coming from that $200,000 is not a significant amount of money? How in the blue Hell is that not a significant amount of money? Maybe I'm wrong, but I am pretty sure most people will never see that amount of money in their lives. At least not in the US (so, I don't know, maybe it is different in Canada). Hell, I am actually really good at saving and have a pretty good amount saved already, so it is conceivable I COULD eventually save up that much (God willing, if my financial situation only improves and never worsens), but it would still take me a while. That is, like, a life savings worthy amount of money.

Not in my world, it's not significant enough to warrant a pre-nup (which isn't even necessary if he keeps it under his name). If the girl is apprehensive about a pre-nup, certainly $200,00 is not worthy of losing someone he loves. You can't put a monetary value on love. Either you trust your partner or you don't.

[TheEvilJester]

Not in my world, it's not significant enough to warrant a pre-nup (which isn't even necessary if he keeps it under his name). If the girl is apprehensive about a pre-nup, certainly $200,00 is not worthy of losing someone he loves. You can't put a monetary value on love. Either you trust your partner or you don't.

No, agreed, I'm not arguing that money is more important than love. I'm just debating the idea that $200,000 is not a significant amount of money. Not to mention, that is money he earned and saved since long before the two of them were together. I think that is enough money that he has a right to want to protect it. I don't think the idea is that $200,000 is worth more to him than his love for her. I mean, that certainly isn't MY intention at all.

If you don't love and trust your partner I would hope you wouldn't be marrying them in the first place. Most people love and trust their partner when they get married..... and yet these days more marriages end in divorce than don't (at least in the US). If, God forbid, two people do get divorced, they are going to wind up having to divide their assets anyway. The intended idea behind a prenup is that you take care of those decisions ahead of time when it isn't with the confused feelings and hurt emotions of going through a divorce.

The idea/attitude about a prenup shouldn't be that it is like saying the marriage WILL end. Again, the idea should just be that it protects both parties IN CASE it does.