Is it just me or...

[Mouser]

If you do nothing about the shortcomings of the culture we live in, you are only contributing to the problem.

Gender roles are the only thing holding our society together? News to me. If you can describe exactly how society would fall apart without them and provide proof for your claims, I would be happy to consider that.

Many, many men have opened doors or held doors open for me and other people in my lifetime. So have many women. I often hold doors for people. It's just a nice thing to do, regardless of gender roles. I certainly wouldn't complain about no one holding doors open for me, unless I was carrying something heavy and couldn't get the door open by myself.

The fact that you blame women who dress "sexily" for being labeled as "meat" only proves my point further. It's people like you who say "she was asking for it!" when a scantily-clad woman is raped. There is no excuse for treating another human being that way.

Yes, you're right. There is a woman holding that position right now. But she is the first woman to ever do so. It's an anomaly for a woman to have a position of power like that, not the norm. Also, I didn't mean in politics, I meant in society. If you think our society isn't patriarchal you must have your head in the damn sand.

[TDurden]

MVPlaya

You are right that this isn't new, but I wasn't saying it was. Nor did I say that all men behaved a certain way or that effeminacy is now the majority.

I probably should've phrased it all better but all I meant was that it's never been as socially mainstream as it is now for men to behave so overtly effeminatly.

My comment about the early nineties was that it was the most recent flux of such behavior, that's all.

It is also worth noting that the issue of gender roles is more confused now than it ever was. Much of the behavior you described was chivilrous, not effiminate and there is a world of difference. What you're seeing now is an increase in popularity of the "pretty" man as opposed to the "handsome" man.

[MVPlaya]

Whats important to discuss here though is what you mean by effeminate. Its important to me because wording like "effeminate" and "masculine" is rooted in gender roles that are assumed to be constant, while there are numerous societies who practice these in reverse and are doing fine. I disagree with notions of biological, evolutionary, or social correctness which effeminacy seems to imply.

So define your terms, what do you mean by effeminate?

I also have no idea what you mean by "pretty" man v "handsome" man. Pretty is something women of my age will call me, handsome is something much older women will call me, I'm pretty sure its the same thing though.

[TDurden]

Pretty
[url]http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/PF/PF_414170_999~Orlando-Bloom-Dreamy-Posters.jpg[/url]

Handsome
[url]http://www.yuleguan.com/50226711/brad%20pitt-thumb.jpg[/url]

By effeminate I mean that on paper the man sounds more like a woman. They have many female personality traits and aren't able to control their emotions, a distinctly male trait.

[MVPlaya]

Orlando Bloom is physically more effeminate than Brad Pitt, thats what you mean right?

To be specific, its obvious he's got more Estrogen in him. E.g, the facial lines and high cheek bones on Orlando, the thinner eyes, versus the wide jaw on Bradd Pitt.

[TDurden]

Orlando Bloom is physically more effeminate than Brad Pitt, thats what you mean right?

Yep


(Ten character limit)

[MVPlaya]

Since we are focusing on physical effeminacy, Orlando Bloom's attractiveness is not something new to the post-90's world. Yes, 90% of the reason women want to **** him is the media hype, but he's an attractive guy in his own right.

One thing thats important to note is that women tend to prefer men with thinner faces and high cheekbones. Not all women are uniform in this, but there's been psychological surveys done on how men and women rate the faces of the opposite sex. Survey authors hypothesized that men would go for women with high estrogen levels, and women for men with high testosterone levels. Estrogen features are things such as high cheekbones, thin faces, smaller eyes, thinner lips, whereas testosterone results in larger brows, more square jaws, rounder faces. If you don't believe me, I can show you pictures of female German swimmers who did T and, believe me, you'll see all these male facial features abudantly clear in them. People's faces are very good indicators of their testosterone / estrogen ( / silicone) levels.

What the researchers did was take several hundred men and women, and have them rate men and women on physical attractiveness. Then use a computer to alter the visual image of the face of the person that was being rated to make it more feminine (estrogen-influenced) or masculine (testosterone-influenced).

What the researchers found was that men preferred women with long facial lines, specifically higher cheekbones, almost somewhat 'sucked in' cheeks, jawlines from the chin flowing to the backs of their necks, 'thinner' eyes. There were feminine features that men of different ages and cultures all seemed attractive to (the survey was conducted with people from non-Western and even tribal societies that are not exposed to any mass media). The idea that men like women with Estrogen seemed pretty well-rooted.

However, they were surprised when they tested the reverse. In having women show what men they found attractive, they went predominantly for men with higher cheekbones, thinner eyes, feminine jawlines. In fact, the more effeminate the face of the man, the more favorably women responded to it. It seems, genetically, women simply are the more attractive of the species, and people prefer effeminate faces. When men had more masculine (testosterone-linked) facial features in them, women began being less attracted to them. The more testosterone-like men's facial features became, the less women began to feel attracted to them.

This doesn't mean women are negatively disposed to muscular bodies, but that there is a strange commonality between women in preferring men with thinner faces and higher cheekbones. Its not just "fashion chic," its a phenomenon thats worldwide. Men tend to place social value in masculine faces, it tends to signify, to us, that a person is strong, trustworthy. Just think back of all the times you see a guy walk around with a confident swagger, he's got a masculine build to him, tall/built, and people treat him with respect and authority. Thats how men tend to guess based off other's physical images, we respect the testosterone. Women, however, are attracted to doses of estrogen.

What the research found was, in the extremes, estrogen was very offputting in men and women. But women preferred men with more estrogen than testosterone induced facial features.

It might be more recent that more effeminate looking men are being shown as "male icons" on TV, as opposed to pre-80's where most men were very masculine looking (think of just about every action star), but that doesn't mean there's a societal shift, the media shift is simply lagging behind the actuality, which is that women like men with somewhat feminine facial features.

I'll try and ask my prof which research unit did this but its a pretty well-known case.

-MV

[vashti]

Interesting... However I always considered "rounded faces" to be a feminine trait, and narrower, more angular ones more masculine.

Orlando Bloom doesn't do a thing for me. In fact, I would like to hold him down and shave off his wimpy moustache.

MVP - how are things? The last time I remember you posting, you were going through a very rough time.

[jurupa]

If you do nothing about the shortcomings of the culture we live in, you are only contributing to the problem.

What do you think I should do then? Because its a Catch 22 on my side. Because there are females there that want the gentleman behavior and expect it. And from my personal experience these females tend not to push the feminist agenda as much. But on the other side which would be the feminist will not be happy that she is not being treated as an equal. So either way I go I am screwed if I try and do something. So I do nothing and worry about other problems. Say what you want and yes I may be adding to the problem but as far as I see it until it effects me to the point where I need to take action, I put it near the bottom of the list of things to do.

Gender roles are the only thing holding our society together? News to me. If you can describe exactly how society would fall apart without them and provide proof for your claims, I would be happy to consider that.

Obviously there are more things holding society together. But I am more referring to the "roles" society as a whole is use to.

Many, many men have opened doors or held doors open for me and other people in my lifetime. So have many women. I often hold doors for people. It's just a nice thing to do, regardless of gender roles. I certainly wouldn't complain about no one holding doors open for me, unless I was carrying something heavy and couldn't get the door open by myself.

I have heard females complain about this. But I am more talking about gentleman like behavior. The door example was a bad one to use, but still.

The fact that you blame women who dress "sexily" for being labeled as "meat" only proves my point further. It's people like you who say "she was asking for it!" when a scantily-clad woman is raped. There is no excuse for treating another human being that way.

God you make me laugh. Your assumption is 100% wrong about me. To me there is a difference between dressing sexy and as piece of meat. And just because a female decides to dress as a piece of meat does not mean she should be rape as no one should be, unless they want happen to them as a fantasy thing.

Yes, you're right. There is a woman holding that position right now. But she is the first woman to ever do so. It's an anomaly for a woman to have a position of power like that, not the norm. Also, I didn't mean in politics, I meant in society. If you think our society isn't patriarchal you must have your head in the damn sand.

Did you read what I posted? I guess not. I pointed out TWO companies that have females at the top. Last time I checked companies where apart of society. Also Opera has a good amount of power it seems. And the Queen of England is in a power position and she is part politic and part social now. So lets do some math since you can't. In my last post I mention 3 females in power, plus another 2 in this one. So that makes 5 right there!

Mouser - I am wondering what your going to assume about me next. Because so far you have assumed two things wrong about me. I wonder what the next one will be. Man this is fun!

[TDurden]

MVPlaya

When was that study done? Because if it was recently then it would help prove my point that this is a more recent thing. Yes, there have always been feminine men, but as mentioned earlier by someone, they got beat up. It was never the "cool" thing for a man to be woman-like in appearance and personality. But now it is an image that is encouraged by the media and embraced by younger women. Ask women in their late twenties and beyond and they'll likely prefer the manly man over the feminine man yet the younger women will likely lean somewhere in between with a fair amount of them preferring the non-threatening, relatable feminine man.

Jururpa, you only gave 5 examples of powerful woman in the entire world. Doesn't really help your argument any

[CAM]

If you think our society isn't patriarchal you must have your head in the damn sand.

LOL Still fighting the same battle, eh? It is like echoes of the victimization literature from the 1980's and 1990's that I read in sociology classes.

The US really isn't patriarchical. If it is in any way patriarchical, then it is in the last stages, in the death-throes of patriarchy. Flash forward even four years and men will largely have disappeared from the upper-echelons. Not because they are being pushed out...many men just don't care anymore, checking out of the public realm.

[jurupa]

Jururpa, you only gave 5 examples of powerful woman in the entire world. Doesn't really help your argument any

Heres a link to the list of female CEO's of Fortune 500 companies:

[url]http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/womenceos/[/url]


That adds 20, so I am up to 25 females in a position of power.n I am sure I can find more of them, both in politics, companies, and society figures.

[MVPlaya]

MVPlaya

When was that study done? Because if it was recently then it would help prove my point that this is a more recent thing. Yes, there have always been feminine men, but as mentioned earlier by someone, they got beat up. It was never the "cool" thing for a man to be woman-like in appearance and personality. But now it is an image that is encouraged by the media and embraced by younger women. Ask women in their late twenties and beyond and they'll likely prefer the manly man over the feminine man yet the younger women will likely lean somewhere in between with a fair amount of them preferring the non-threatening, relatable feminine man.

Jururpa, you only gave 5 examples of powerful woman in the entire world. Doesn't really help your argument any

Date: I'm not sure, I think it was around 96 / 97, I won't have this class again until Thursday.

I disagree 100% that if the survey is recent it proves your point that its a recent thing. Here's why:

When the survey was performed they not only sampled people in the US and Europe, they sampled people in Asia, Africa, Australia, and even looked for people from tribal societies who are NOT in any connection with mainstream media. People who won't even know who Brad Pitt is, never heard of the titanic, and don't know what Rap or R&B means. They interviewed Amazonian aboriginals, tribal Native American societies, and a lot more, this was a very big case.

If your argument is that its a media shift thats causing acceptance of feminine looks, then how does that explain tribal societies that don't watch your media?

Lastly:

"Yes, there have always been feminine men, but as mentioned earlier by someone, they got beat up."

Says who? Square jaws don't make you a better fighter. Testosterone makes more masculine men slightly stronger, but if an effeminate guy works out, understands martial art technique better, or is faster, then an excess of testosterone won't win the fight. Fights aren't done based off effeminacy, fights happen between people who are competing for the same social role (tough guy on the street, leader of the group), if an effeminate guy isn't challenging your position/authority, there's no real point in fighting him. And if you do fight him, bonus testosterone really isn't going to win it for you.

[jurupa]

Says who? Square jaws don't make you a better fighter. Testosterone makes more masculine men slightly stronger, but if an effeminate guy works out, understands martial art technique better, or is faster, then an excess of testosterone won't win the fight. Fights aren't done based off effeminacy, fights happen between people who are competing for the same social role (tough guy on the street, leader of the group), if an effeminate guy isn't challenging your position/authority, there's no real point in fighting him. And if you do fight him, bonus testosterone really isn't going to win it for you.

I agree with the social challenge thing for fights, as that is non stop between the gangs in Los Angeles. But what about war? Or where a guy pisses me off to the point I want to attack him?

[TDurden]

MVPlaya

You're continuing to focus on the physical appearance of a feminine guy which is only one part of what I am talking about. The comment about a feminine man getting beat up wasn't in relation to phsyical appearance, it was about someone who acted femmy.

I want to hear your argument against the rest of what I am saying.