a poem.

[IndiReloaded]

PS - this statement is crap:

Innovation, originality etc come AFTER you learn how to do things by the book, because you need to know the craft inside out.

Bullshit. This is what the 'experts' want you to believe. So you get immersed in their way of doing things. Its a way of perpetuating the system and it provides a sense of security for those who aren't comfortable with stepping outside 'the box'. The true innovators (which is only about 2% of the population, at least genetically) can see crap (or good ideas) for what they are almost immediately. And they start pushing boundaries for things almost immediately upon starting their craft. Anyone who tries to dissuade you of doing that isn't really interested in helping you progress. The real use of formal training, in my opinion, is merely to make sure you aren't reinventing the wheel. That, and learning some discipline.

Again, I'm a scientist, not an artist. But I think there's a lot of creativity & boundary-pushing required for both. In that respect, I think there's some common ground.

FWIW

[miSSleepy]

PS - this statement is crap:



Bullshit. This is what the 'experts' want you to believe. So you get immersed in their way of doing things.

Yes I'm sure there's some conspiracy here,. the experts are trying to control the world of art because... hmm, well, why?

because:

Its a way of perpetuating the system and it provides a sense of security for those who aren't comfortable with stepping outside 'the box'.

Yeh...right. I'm sure it's all worth the bother.



Look, whatever. You're talking crap, to be honest. I can't debate with you about a topic you haven't got a knowledge about.

You can just stick to being idealistic and I'll stick to being realistic...agree to disagree kind of thing. I'm a cynic after all.

[anachronistic]

Look, whatever. You're talking crap, to be honest. I can't debate with you about a topic you haven't got a knowledge about.

You can just stick to being idealistic and I'll stick to being realistic...agree to disagree kind of thing. I'm a cynic after all.

Missleepy, you're studying the art of teaching, right? Well you got a lot of learning to do. Here, we do not expect people to have a college degree to post a poem. A lot of stuff gets published all the time. Formally and informally, whether you like it or not.

So if you don't like it, critique it (politely) and suggest how to improve it. That's one way of learning. You can't possibly expect someone to learn something valuable with the context that you posted in?

Indie is correct, and you're grinding your teeth because you can't keep up with the debate. I know this because I am part of the publishing industry. *shrug*

[miSSleepy]

Missleepy, you're studying the art of teaching, right? Well you got a lot of learning to do. Here, we do not expect people to have a college degree to post a poem. A lot of stuff gets published all the time. Formally and informally, whether you like it or not.

O for pete's sake, I never said he needs to have a college degree! the whole thing about my degree is taken way out of context - the guy I asked if I was a poetry Nazi and I replied that no, I just studied it at univeristy degree.
Everyone else keeps bringing this degree up - NOT ME.

So if you don't like it, critique it (politely) and suggest how to improve it. That's one way of learning.

I have, but some people here seem to think that politeness is praise. The guy thinks his poem is fine as it is anyway, so I guess the critique is useless anyway.

You can't possibly expect someone to learn something valuable with the context that you posted in?

what context is that? college degree? Again, I never said that he needs to have a college degree.

Indie is correct, and you're grinding your teeth because you can't keep up with the debate. I know this because I am part of the publishing industry. *shrug*

You know that I can't keep up because you're in the publishing industry? Come again?
I'm keeping up fine, I have provided something other than uneducated opinion - hell, she said so too, she's a science person.
And please, tell me, what is it that publishers look for?
And tell me also, does this poem move you? Are you emotionally affected by it?


I started on this thread giving critique and acknowledged that it may be out of place. The guy didn't like and blew up. i rebutted. My wording may be harsh at times, often unintentionally, but it was critique, nothing else - so what is the bloomin' problem here?

[miSSleepy]

Missleepy, you're studying the art of teaching, right?

Teaching children, elementary school - but I guess you could call it an art

[anachronistic]

You know that I can't keep up because you're in the publishing industry? Come again?
I'm keeping up fine, I have provided something other than uneducated opinion - hell, she said so too, she's a science person.
And please, tell me, what is it that publishers look for?
And tell me also, does this poem move you? Are you emotionally affected by it?

We're getting off topic here.

1. You heard me.

2. Unless you're studying fine arts, technically, your opinions are *still* uneducated.

3. Too many things to entail in one post. And again, is offtopic. I guess if you want to continue that argument, make yourself a thread and I'll be happy to include what I know.

4. The poem does move me. I think it is good *shrug* however, if I were the one writing it, I'd have all kinds of things to change about it. But it's not mine.

I think this would make a good topic for suggestion, but not necessarily by hijacking this thread.

[IndiReloaded]

Give it up LW, Missy is the sort of person that can't see any viewpoint other than her own. And we haven't been skillful in giving her an 'out' so now her pride is at stake as far as needing to defend her position.

Missy, you will say you don't care, but I'm not merely a science person, I happen to be a science expert. With a doctorate from a school in the US that you would shit bricks to be able to attend. I have taught many students over the years, some very close-minded like yourself & I suppose that I'm simply in that mode right now (trying to open your mind a bit). Hoping that you will see something larger in what we are all telling you (Giga, LW & myself all had a problem w/how you approached this thread--go back and read). Given that you are studying at an undergraduate level, I think you would admit you are not yet an expert in your area. In my case, by societal standards, I *am* an expert. The points I make are based on years of experience, not merely my opinion, as is your case.

But, of course, everything you said is right & we are wrong. We don't have any valid points here. I admire your stubborness, if not your intellect. Good luck with that attitude in your teaching career.

[squirrley]

Wow this thread was blown up. Damn. I would like to say IMO that anyone who writes anything "good for them", crap to someone but maybe to someone else its good.

Creativity is awesome! The poem threads are a great way for people to express themselves. A few years ago so many people were writing and were writing from their heart, no one on here dogged that person for whatever they wrote, but knew it was from within. No one was looking for anyone to critique them or praise them, but an outlet.

My poems are so not even there, and I would never consider trying to publish them, I just wrote out my feelings in a Mickey Mouse Manner. But there were so many creative people on here a few ago's it was amazing the creativity they shared.

My husband had his first novel published this last year and was released this past Aug. I know how difficult it is to get things published through the right people. I met the owner of Tor Publishing in NY, its an amazing world. Chris and I are suppose to spend the weekend with Douglas Preston on his boat up in Maine. Its a crazy world and it takes so long. It was amazing to walk into a Barns and Nobles and see my husbands book on the shelf.

Indi, I would love to throw some paint in the wind! HUGE canvas and have no ryhme or reason to doing it.
Just let yourself go!

Anyway, I give koodoos to anyone for sharing their creativity on here.

[vashti]

This is the translation of my favorite poem:

A Dog After Love
Yehuda Amichai



After you left me
I let a dog smell at
My chest and my belly. It will fill its nose
And set out to find you.

I hope it will tear the
Testicles of your lover and bite off his penis
Or at least
Will bring me your stockings between his teeth.

[squirrley]

oh my gawd im rolling on the floor Vashti! I had written a bad ass poem similar to that a few years ago, I wish I had never taken that off of here.

[vashti]

oh my gawd im rolling on the floor Vashti! I had written a bad ass poem similar to that a few years ago, I wish I had never taken that off of here.

Hehehe! I actually laughed out loud (inappropriately) in a class I was taking with a rabbi when I read that by accident while skimming ahead in the book... the author is actually a very famous poet in Israel, and I genuinely DO like that poem (but we were studying his religious poetry so this was a very unexpected and delightful surprise). I really enjoy the contrast between his fury and his passion. Anyway, the rabbi asked if I wanted to read it out loud in front of our class, but of course, I invited him to read it out loud instead (he did).

BTW - I taught an elementary school class about Jackson Pollack, and we took paint, brushes, and a giant roll of butcher paper out into the grass and splatter-painted the whole thing. It was glorious, and the kids loved it. THAT was art... who cares what the finished product looked like?

I have to admit, though, miSSleepy, that I sympathize (to some extent) with your position, as I am a bit of a poetry snob, and therefore rarely post on a poetry threads.

[Kiechi]

Alright, quit it people. This isn't the place to debate bout' what is and what isn't art and the traditional technique of throwing paint.

Thank you.


EDIT: Ignore the above. Paint fight!

[vashti]

::throws paint at kiechi::

[Kiechi]

:: Pours paint down Vashtis back ::

[miSSleepy]

Give it up LW, Missy is the sort of person that can't see any viewpoint other than her own. And we haven't been skillful in giving her an 'out' so now her pride is at stake as far as needing to defend her position.

Gees Indi, 2 things

- you're failing to see my viewpoint as well, so I could say that you're closeminded as well. It works both ways. Just because I won't accept your viewpoint (and why would anyone accept a differing viewpoint if there is not enough conviction?) doesn't imply I'm closeminded.

- if you think I've lost my pride on a FORUM, well, sorry but no.