clinton and obama

[IndiReloaded]

If you think intelligent design is undermining US research efforts you are clueless. I don't even see how you could argue this. I'm at one of the best schools for undergraduate research anywhere and can't even imagine where this would start to play into the equation.

I see your confusion. ID refers to the public education system. Not post-secondary education. But it affects you b/c it means that your own students will become less competitive on a global scale. That's what I & ppl like Ken Miller are talking about. Its a long term effect but you can already see it happening. Your most competitive students aren't always even from the US anymore, esp in graduate research programs. Look at how many of your students at elite colleges are foreign, if you're on a coast start w/your own school. I know b/c I was one of those students.

So, yes, you *are* clueless about this subject DM. Don't take my word for it, tho, ask one of your science profs about this subject & longterm effects on the strength of the US research programs b/c of declining quality of entering students. BTW, ID is just one symptom of a larger problem, but its one that touches upon science & research so its something I feel qualified to comment on, so is why I mentioned it.

[DoesntMatter]

DM, you don't know what you are talking about. But sure, you're right & ppl like myself & Ken Miller & countless other scientists don't have a clue.

And China would give the US a run for her money, you bet. They have a huge ground military, nuclear weapons (including miniture), anti-satellite systems, well developed research facilities for chemical & biological weapons... They've bought & have been refitting a bunch of aircraft carriers. McVadon gave a report to the US congress warning about the huge amount of expansion & money China has been putting into her military & that there was cause for worry.

I was exaggerating when I said you don't have a clue. You are just blowing things up way out of proportion. You are the first person I have ever heard who made the serious claim that intelligent design being taught somewhere is putting us behind other countries. I have a friend here who always bashes creationism and acts like that's the hottest topic today, kind of how you are. The only difference is that he isn't serious.

Similarly I haven't actually seen a professor that denies the holocaust, yet there are many out there, one of my dads electrical engineering professors at Northwestern being one. Just because you have supposedly qualified people clamoring on about some issue doesn't make it so

I went to a public school. Creationism wasn't taught, and if it was like it is in some other school districts in localized areas of the south, it would be presented in conjunction with evolution. They must be telling you up there in Canada that the US south is still back in the stone ages, a bunch of bible-thumping hicks missing teeth killing childrens brain cells by presenting creationism on the side just to placate some religious nuts

Haven't we already gotten past the fact that China has a huge military and spends a lot of money on their military? You know who else spends a lot of $ on their military? The US, our 2008 estimated expenditures are put at over $620 billion, Chinas: $45 billion. But you still like talking about the fact that they have "Oh so much"! They have "Oh so much" SHIT. Do you seriously think their top-secret research into fighter planes compares with ours? We had the ****ing F-117 stealth bomber in 1982 out in the open, and it's still better than anything they have

And you are trying to say that US military documents saying Chinas growing expenditures on their military and their recent efforts at modernization equate to them now being better than us. No, I think not

But it affects you b/c it means that your own students will become less competitive on a global scale. That's what I & ppl like Ken Miller are talking about. Its a long term effect but you can already see it happening. Your most competitive students aren't always even from the US anymore, esp in graduate research programs. Look at how many of your students at elite colleges are foreign, if you're on a coast start w/your own school. I know b/c I was one of those students.

So, yes, you *are* clueless about this subject DM. Don't take my word for it, tho, ask one of your science profs about this subject & longterm effects on the strength of the US research programs b/c of declining quality of entering students. BTW, ID is just one symptom of a larger problem, but its one that touches upon science & research so its something I feel qualified to comment on, so is why I mentioned it.

It would make sense some of the most competetive students come from abroad if their countries of origin have large populations. I see a large number of international students. But in all honesty there have been very few that have actually impressed me. The smartest kids I know here offhand have all been American, an American (Calabrian) biochemistry major on my floor, an American (German) economics student on my floor who is a amazing at anything math, physics or chemistry (in economics for the $$$), some physics major (American) who is straight up dirty south (probably English ethnicity), a physics engineering kid (American, Macedonian ethnicity) and a Chinese kid (from China, chemistry major). My two bio lab partners are Asian chicks from Asia, they are good students not not very intuitive or original. God forbid someone asks them a question they haven't seen verbatim out of the book. For supposedly having so much better high school equivalent educations in these foreign countries I am not at all impressed with how well they have been prepared

And BTW I think I will ask one of my professors, possibly my chem professor tomorrow

Saying there is a longterm negative effect with the causes starting now like you did at the end of that post, yes now that is a much more legit argument

[Only-virgins]

I know nothing about politics. That is all I have to say in this thread.

[DoesntMatter]

I know nothing about politics. That is all I have to say in this thread.

You don't need politics when you're getting ASS

[anachronistic]

I was exaggerating when I said you don't have a clue. You are just blowing things up way out of proportion. You are the first person I have ever heard who made the serious claim that intelligent design being taught somewhere is putting us behind other countries. I have a friend here who always bashes creationism and acts like that's the hottest topic today, kind of how you are. The only difference is that he isn't serious.

Similarly I haven't actually seen a professor that denies the holocaust, yet there are many out there, one of my dads electrical engineering professors at Northwestern being one. Just because you have supposedly qualified people clamoring on about some issue doesn't make it so

I went to a public school. Creationism wasn't taught, and if it was like it is in some other school districts in localized areas of the south, it would be presented in conjunction with evolution. They must be telling you up there in Canada that the US south is still back in the stone ages, a bunch of bible-thumping hicks missing teeth killing childrens brain cells by presenting creationism on the side just to placate some religious nuts

Haven't we already gotten past the fact that China has a huge military and spends a lot of money on their military? You know who else spends a lot of $ on their military? The US, our 2008 estimated expenditures are put at over $620 billion, Chinas: $45 billion. But you still like talking about the fact that they have "Oh so much"! They have "Oh so much" SHIT. Do you seriously think their top-secret research into fighter planes compares with ours? We had the ****ing F-117 stealth bomber in 1982 out in the open, and it's still better than anything they have

And you are trying to say that US military documents saying Chinas growing expenditures on their military and their recent efforts at modernization equate to them now being better than us. No, I think not



It would make sense some of the most competetive students come from abroad if their countries of origin have large populations. I see a large number of international students. But in all honesty there have been very few that have actually impressed me. The smartest kids I know here offhand have all been American, an American (Calabrian) biochemistry major on my floor, an American (German) economics student on my floor who is a amazing at anything math, physics or chemistry (in economics for the $$$), some physics major (American) who is straight up dirty south (probably English ethnicity), a physics engineering kid (American, Macedonian ethnicity) and a Chinese kid (from China, chemistry major). My two bio lab partners are Asian chicks from Asia, they are good students not not very intuitive or original. God forbid someone asks them a question they haven't seen verbatim out of the book. For supposedly having so much better high school equivalent educations in these foreign countries I am not at all impressed with how well they have been prepared

And BTW I think I will ask one of my professors, possibly my chem professor tomorrow

Saying there is a longterm negative effect with the causes starting now like you did at the end of that post, yes now that is a much more legit argument

Some countries have better education systems than America. For example, Germany.

[IndiReloaded]

I went to a public school. Creationism wasn't taught, and if it was like it is in some other school districts in localized areas of the south, it would be presented in conjunction with evolution. They must be telling you up there in Canada that the US south is still back in the stone ages, a bunch of bible-thumping hicks missing teeth killing childrens brain cells by presenting creationism on the side just to placate some religious nuts.

DM, this isn't anyone in Canada 'telling us stuff'. Its from your own US news. There were a couple of highly publicized cases that actually went to court in order for the parents to prevent the school board from teaching creationism in public schools. They both lost (fortunately), but it wasn't a sure thing by any means. These groups were not blown off as 'crazies' like you'd expect. They actually had the school board ready to implement their textbookk & ideas. THAT is what is scary.

Look, I don't want this to get into the whole religion argument again, I'm just pointing out an example of how, if these types of group actually get into power larger than a local school board (and they're trying, esp in those red states), that this will affect the type & quality of research that will be done in the US. Its a warning; this is the type of climate that the US is currently fostering & its scary.

Its called the Dover Decision & its scary for not only that reason. The school district, b/c of those nutbars, had to pay out 1M to the parents & laywers for that BS. I think it was worth it to squash ID/creationism but what a collosal waste otherwise. That's a lot fewer books for kids.


[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District[/url]

[Only-virgins]

You don't need politics when you're getting ASS

Don't know why that makes sense, but I agree. haha

[IndiReloaded]

Some countries have better education systems than America. For example, Germany.

I'd have to agree with this, at least for elementary to pre-college level.

[anachronistic]

I'd have to agree with this, at least for elementary to pre-college level.

I'm not sure about German college, either... or foreign colleges anyway. I'll tell you after I go there for a semester!

[Junket]

If China and India would just go to war, we'd have solved half the world over-population problem.

[vashti]

Some countries have better education systems than America. For example, Germany.

I agree that the primary school education may be better. After all they weed out the low achievers and dummies at age 10, and prepare their brightest students (only) for university rather than pretending all students through grade 12 are created equally like they do in our "socialized" educational system.

However, German universities suck ass by comparison, at least according to these (and many other) sources.

[url]http://www.arwu.org/rank/2005/ARWU2005_Top100.htm[/url]

[url]http://challenge.visualessence.nl/C514241107/E559564155/index.html[/url]

[url]http://i.cs.hku.hk/~tse/topten.html[/url]

[IndiReloaded]

I was exaggerating when I said you don't have a clue. You are just blowing things up way out of proportion. You are the first person I have ever heard who made the serious claim that intelligent design being taught somewhere is putting us behind other countries.

I said ID was an example. One I happen to be familiar with, I stated that clearly. The fact that I'm the first person you've heard this from just means that YOU don't read or understand much about this topic. It certainly doesn't mean that I don't have a clue. Is this how you expect to learn something in an argument, DM?

Similarly I haven't actually seen a professor that denies the holocaust, yet there are many out there, one of my dads electrical engineering professors at Northwestern being one. Just because you have supposedly qualified people clamoring on about some issue doesn't make it so.

And you don't think that some fool claiming the holocaust never happened isn't a problem? Esp someone who is in a teaching position?

Are you telling me I'm supposedly qualified, DM? LOL. True, you don't have any proof, and I'm not about to post my CV on the internet (here anyway) so you'll have to go w/your gut. I might as well say you are full of shit about being a chem major w/military experience. But, you sound like a noob undergrad w/more opinion than experience, so I believe you.

And you are trying to say that US military documents saying Chinas growing expenditures on their military and their recent efforts at modernization equate to them now being better than us. No, I think not.

I'm saying, you idiot, that your comment about being able to take on China 1-on-1 if it weren't for Iraq is just stupid & not even close to the truth. China can't be strongarmed; her growing military is not insignificant, and if you were to engage in open conflict your markets would be trashed (almost 1/2 of the US federal debt is held foreignly--China & Japan last I read). Clinton made a good call at the time, but I seriously doubt a repeat of the Taiwan Strait conflict would have the same outcome today.

The US will have to learn to politick w/her, something I'm not sure your current diplomats are up to. Gore mbe could, I'd put $ on him for brains, but not anyone running currently. Hillary is a woman, so I'm not sure about her ability to deal w/asia. Fact is, she's a woman & that's a problem from their end.

The US couldn't deal w/Vietnam; how much worse do you think China would be? Pretty much ALL the US has going for it is military and that power is waning & beyond a certain level of tech its no longer a matter of how *many* bombs u got, just that u got them. At least the Soviet Union didn't have you by the financial balls.

If I were you, I'd pick a leader w/a brain who understands diplomacy & foreign policy. Bush was a total retard that way & still is.

[misombra]

i am confident that one day very soon, we won't have satan's incarnates in the white house.

i am also confident that the clinton's and bush's will go back to burning in hell from whence they came. along with roosevelt. both of them.

[IndiReloaded]

[quote=vashti;318820]I agree that the primary school education may be better. After all they weed out the low achievers and dummies at age 10, and prepare their brightest students (only) for university rather than pretending all students through grade 12 are created equally like they do in our "socialized" educational system.

However, German universities suck ass by comparison, at least according to these (and many other) sources.

[url]http://www.arwu.org/rank/2005/ARWU2005_Top100.htm[/url]

I love that list, lol.

[IndiReloaded]

If China and India would just go to war, we'd have solved half the world over-population problem.

Ouch, lol. True; mbe we should blame the undersea cable cuts on India & see what happens, lol.