Well...

[Dancer]

[QUOTE=IndiReloaded;327680And those whiny french bastards don't even belong[/QUOTE]
They do belong, and they are very relevant to the security council...BTW---i have the deepest respect for both the French and the Canadian Military forces. They are among some of the finest operators in the world.

[Dancer]

No - worse than useless, it's harmful.

In certain aspects, you're RIGHT...

[misombra]

bring our soldiers home, that's what i say.

i'm tired of hearing about women with multiple children who are struggling because their main support was sent of to die, or worse, came back maimed, mentally and physically disabled and ill.

i'm sick of this shit already. it makes me angry to think about it. i don't even want to know half the shit that's thrown in my face by the news.

i was listening to npr and they were saying every news network has a different number to represent dead soldiers.

also they don't include the ones that come back in worse shape than what they left in. i bet you could multiply 4000 by double digit numbers to figure that out.

i'm sick of the idiocy, the ignorance, the hatred, the greed, the extreme stupidity on the part of the majority of people, the war spirit.

there are so many other more relevant and important causes to be fighting for in this world.

[Dancer]

a stronger mandate.

"Stronger" in what regards???

[DoesntMatter]

DM & Dancer, are you seriously saying that if some foreign country *invaded* the US w/military force that you wouldn't fight them to the 9s to get them out?

I call bullshit on both of you. You're believing your own hype.

OK since you are trying to draw a comparison between Iraq being occupied by American forces and America being occupied by some other forces, let me give a more accurate description and you tell me where I go wrong

1) The US goes from being a democratic nation to occupied, whereas Iraq goes from being a dictatorship to occupied

2) (The main point) This country that invades the US builds us schools, hospitals, roads, tries updating infrastructure at the expense of their own citizens, etc, and some dickheads in MY country try to stop them. These occupying forces also want to leave as soon as they get the chance, and to get them to leave, all we have to do is stop trying to kill them! Wow, imagine that! If the goal was to get them to leave, shooting them isn't gonna do it, but NOT shooting them WILL do it!

[IndiReloaded]

2) (The main point) This country that invades the US builds us schools, hospitals, roads, tries updating infrastructure at the expense of their own citizens, etc, and some dickheads in MY country try to stop them. These occupying forces also want to leave as soon as they get the chance, and to get them to leave, all we have to do is stop trying to kill them! Wow, imagine that! If the goal was to get them to leave, shooting them isn't gonna do it, but NOT shooting them WILL do it!

If this so-called 'help' was *requested*, then I would agree with you. But it wasn't, DM. You can't force help down anyone's throat, not on a personal level, nor a political one.

The US went in on the pretext of WMD & didn't find any. We all know the story there. When it was clear they were wrong, they should have pulled out right then.

And its not related to anti-terrorism. We all know *that* focus is Afghanistan, which is why countries like Canada, who refused to get on the Bush-Blair Bully Wagon, decided to send troops there instead.

Face it DM, the US had & still has no business in Iraq, which is why the UN & countries like Canada won't have anything to do with it. I'm just amazed that Americans STILL put up with having her soldiers being shot at for such an obvious ****-up. If I were in the US military I would be damned pissed. As Miso said, there are much better things they could be doing. Viva la mighty (tho declining) dollar.

[vashti]

I think the main reason we are in Iraq has nothing to do with WMDs, but as I said before, to prevent civil war.

Also, I think the American presence in Iraq HAS drawn terrorists to the area, so indirectly, yes, it can now be argued that it is a part of the war on terrorism.

[Dancer]

Allow me to share why I decided to support any invasion of Iraq...for me this ends my explanation, so bear with me here. This is what i told my flight and ground crew who were under my command and it was the best explanation I could give them at the time. It was around 3 years ago so it's relevant, our morale was low at the time.
All of us volunteered to be U.S. Marines. Some of us came here because we were bored at home and this looked like it might be fun. Some of us came because we were ashamed not to. Many came, because like me, it was the right thing to do.
For us this was a different kind of Marine Corp. If you look at history you'll see men fighting for pay, or women, or some other kind of loot. Thet fought for land, or because a king made them, or simply because they liked killing. But, we're here for something new.This hasn't happened much in the history of the world. We are Marines out to set other men free. Iraq should be free ground from the Persian Gulf to Syria. No man should bow, no man is born to royalty like in Saudi Arabia. In Iraq you should be judged by what you do, not by who your father was. Here, in Iraq, they should be allowed to be something. Here they can build a home and have a family. No, it's not about the OIL either...there's always more OIL. It's the idea that we all have VALUE, THEM and US. What we're fighting for in the end is, EACH OTHER.
Forgive me for this whole thread I started here, I didn't mean to preach.

[vashti]

Meh, I know you are a true believer, dancer, and I am glad you are able to believe in it. As for me, I think what the world did not need was another Shiite state, espcially right next door to Iran. I think Bush did not fully understand the realities of the region when he went in, nor the potential consequences of his actions.

[Dancer]

I think Bush did not fully understand the realities of the region when he went in, nor the potential consequences of his actions.

In the end, I was not fighting for Bush, the United States, mom, apple pie or anything else. I kept doing tours there to be with my men and my friends. I just couldn't bring myself to leave them there.

[DoesntMatter]

If this so-called 'help' was *requested*, then I would agree with you. But it wasn't, DM. You can't force help down anyone's throat, not on a personal level, nor a political one.

The US went in on the pretext of WMD & didn't find any. We all know the story there. When it was clear they were wrong, they should have pulled out right then.

And its not related to anti-terrorism. We all know *that* focus is Afghanistan, which is why countries like Canada, who refused to get on the Bush-Blair Bully Wagon, decided to send troops there instead.

Face it DM, the US had & still has no business in Iraq, which is why the UN & countries like Canada won't have anything to do with it. I'm just amazed that Americans STILL put up with having her soldiers being shot at for such an obvious ****-up. If I were in the US military I would be damned pissed. As Miso said, there are much better things they could be doing. Viva la mighty (tho declining) dollar.

I wasn't justfying our business in Iraq, I was responding to your argument that I wouldn't fight an invading force that did all this shit for us

[IndiReloaded]

I kept doing tours there to be with my men and my friends. I just couldn't bring myself to leave them there.

That's frankly, not a good enough reason Dancer. Not your fault, I understand your constraints, but you stating that the US invaded Iraq for any kind of humanitarian reasons is beyond ridiculous. If that were so, why didn't any troops get sent to Kenya or to help the Acholi in Uganda? There are many places in the world that need help. Why the focus on the Middle East?

Oh yeah, because they have oil & they have the money to buy $$$$ weapons that the US produces. Iraq (oops), Iran... Israel.

But, we're here for something new.This hasn't happened much in the history of the world. We are Marines out to set other men free. Iraq should be free ground from the Persian Gulf to Syria. No man should bow, no man is born to royalty like in Saudi Arabia.

The US has always been reluctant to assist in world peacekeeping unless there's a clear advantage. Your not in Iraq out of the goodness of your hearts, lol. Think WWII, Churchill nearly went under; how about Bosnia, why such a rushed decision? I could go on but I think you get my point.

[Dancer]

That's frankly, not a good enough reason Dancer.

I'd never expect you to understand, no offense, unless you've served with another in combat...unless you've put your life in another man's hands and asked him to do the same of you...unless you've looked down into the eyes of a young Marine who trusted every order you have given him and he just had his guts blown apart by sniper fire and he's saying, "Major, sir, I'm hurt real bad, put my stomach together, sir, please don't let me die, tell my daughter I love her very much." For me, being at their sides, was a good enough reason for me.

[Dancer]

If that were so, why didn't any troops get sent to Kenya or to help the Acholi in Uganda?

Ask the U.S. Congress, if it were up to me, I would have been more than honored to assist those people and defend the innocents that live there, but sadly that decision is not mine.

[Dancer]

but you stating that the US invaded Iraq for any kind of humanitarian reasons is beyond ridiculous.

Oh yeah, because they have oil & they have the money to buy $$$$ weapons that the US produces.

And you stating that the only reason we invaded another dictatorial regime was for oil or to traffic US produced weapons is beyond illogical and bordering lunacy. Reasons like that are the product of far left wing nutjobs who watch way too much MSNBC and listen to more than enough Air America radio shows. That's the expected logic of such "fine" pieces of work like Michael Moore or Alex Jones who claimed 9/11 was an inside job. Not even pinkos like Bill Maher would even subscribe to that horse shit.