mormonism

[lastwish]

Yes...there were the religious wars in Europe in the past but it was the result of churches getting too much political power (resulting in conflict between the state and the spiritual institution as well as between religions). Although fortunte countries like Canada, America, India, france, etc are now secular thus religious wars are non-existant in these coutries...other countries like Irael still have such wars. Churches aren't destructive institutions (in my opinion) as long as it concerns only with the spiritual, not political. Yes...politics have religious fibers since religion is rooted so deeply in society and politics but as long as the churches don't play a direct and active role in politics and only concern itself with spiritual issues..we should be fine.

I personally think if one is to proclaim themselves as believers of a religion, they should take the faith seriously and follow its principles. On the other hand, one doesn't have to be Christian to share values such as humility, respect, kindness, etc. You don't have to be christian or even religious to share those values because those values are universal (its also in Islam, buddahism, other religions, laws, social norms, education and just widely accepted as positive qualities). Going back to Dm's point, the basic social norms, laws, etc are rooted from religion. Christanity is not "bad" but there are negative aspects (in accordance to today's western values) such as intolerance for homosexuality, a sense of religious inclusiveness, etc that doesn't suit today's western modern values (I'm emphasizing "modern taste" because homosexuality really wasn't accept openly as a norm in western society back then nor is it accepted in most countries in Asia and the middle east). I guess Christanity is just very old and doesn't suit some of today's modernized western values.

[vashti]

I think if anyone is interested in exploring religion, it is a good idea to research what the supporters and the critics say about them.

Also, I tend to agree with much of what DM says. It seems that most people who are anti-religion have had very little formal religious education, especially beyond childhood, and to be honest, it shows.

BTW - lastwish - India still has religious strife.

[Mish]

I think there's no harm in exploring a religion as long as you balance it out by exploring other religions at the same time. If you spend as much time learning about Buddhism as you do Mormonism, I don't think there's as much danger of getting sucked into someone else's reality vortex.

I agree with this. I can see that Religion has a lot of important lessons from which we can learn shaped by milleniums of human history (if you disregard some of the rubbish). There are a lot of positive similarities between different Religions, just think about the golden rule / recipricatory ethic which are found throughout most Religions. I seriously don't understand why someone should choose to not be open to learn from these different ideologies and absorb just the good bits.

As far as God goes, the idea of flawless God is not secluded to Christianity and the bible. Many other cultures and Religions developed the concept of a God as source of harmony to strive towards and a God's opposite source of chaos to avoid. I think a much better understanding of this concepts can be achieved when studying a variety of Religions, looking for positive patterns and similarities between them. Not only does this contribute to own self development, but it also teaches the philosophy of civilizations. Why certain concepts always survive, weather the storms and contribute to development of civilizations and culture and others don't.

[Junket]

It seems that most people who are anti-religion have had very little formal religious education, especially beyond childhood, and to be honest, it shows.

Or they were raised Catholic.

[lastwish]

Ya...India is somewhat a unique case. Their secular system is different from European countries like France for example. France don't tolerate religious symbols and have their own national identity. But India permits religious practices (in public, open declaration, etc) even though they proclaim themselves secular (its arguable whether they are truely secular). They are a weird case.

[vashti]

I was referring to the Muslim/Hindu violence.

[lastwish]

I can see that Religion has a lot of important lessons from which we can learn shaped by milleniums of human history (if you disregard some of the rubbish). There are a lot of positive similarities between different Religions, just think about the golden rule / recipricatory ethic which are found throughout most Religions. I seriously don't understand why someone should choose to not be open to learn from these different ideologies and absorb just the good bits.

Any philosophy is good to know about. But I just personally dislike it when someone proclaim to believe in a certain religion but they don't really follow all its principles or take it seriously. If they were to do a buffet of different beliefs then the result would not technically belong to those religions..it would be a personal belief/philosophy.

I was referring to the Muslim/Hindu violence.

Again, politics ties into it.

[Mish]

Any philosophy is good to know about. But I just personally dislike it when someone proclaim to believe in a certain religion but they don't really follow all its principles or take it seriously. If they were to do a buffet of different beliefs then the result would not technically belong to those religions..it would be a personal belief/philosophy.

Most of the Religious people don't follow all of the principles of their Religion. It's close to imposible to follow all of the principles word for word. If you think about it, most Religions are milleniums old, they refer to old cultures with concubines, multiple wives, slaves it's no longer acceptable to live those kinds of life styles. So most followers of Religions today are already cherry picking and have been doing it for centuries. I would just like to see it expanded one step further. Learn from all instead of just one.

[vashti]

Any philosophy is good to know about. But I just personally dislike it when someone proclaim to believe in a certain religion but they don't really follow all its principles or take it seriously. If they were to do a buffet of different beliefs then the result would not technically belong to those religions..it would be a personal belief/philosophy.



Again, politics ties into it.

Religion and politics are completely insepaerable. Anyway, I get what you are saying... you basically don't care for Catholics having premarital sex and abortions, right?

[lastwish]

Most of the Religious people don't follow all of the principles of their Religion. It's close to imposible to follow all of the principles word for word. If you think about it, most Religions are milleniums old, they refer to old cultures with concubines, multiple wives, slaves it's no longer acceptable to live those kinds of life styles. So most followers of Religions today are already cherry picking and have been doing it for centuries. I would just like to see it expanded one step further. Learn from all instead of just one.

I agree with you. I wasn't clear..my bad. I mean the core principles. Its just weird to see people proclaiming themselves Christian when they have premarital sex..u know?

[Gribble]

If in order to tolerate your religion you must ignore half of its teachings, well, maybe that's a good indication that the religion is bullshit. Maybe it's time to either try living a life based on reason or create a new religion that melds with modern times.

I can at least stomach a person believing there's some kind of greater power out there without tossing out a bunch of unsupported bullshit to define it. I cannot abide a person who would worship a being that, according to the very book which teaches us everything we know about this being, would not hesitate to kill an innocent man's wife and children and inflict him with boils for the sake of a bet.

[Mish]

I agree with you. I wasn't clear..my bad. I mean the core principles. Its just weird to see people proclaiming themselves Christian when they have premarital sex..u know?

Yeh, I know what you mean. Especially when a Religious person (say Christian, but there are many examples of followers of other Religions guilty of this) spits out a verse from the Bible in judgement condemning another person while clearly disregarding another passage in the Bible which condemns any form of judgement. These people are not really Religious if they engage in harm of others, they are just slaves to their own ignorance.

By the way this is how I view Religious people. Anyone who harms another person (unless in response to a direct and immediate threat to their life) is not really Religious, they are just hiding behind Religion.

[Junket]

I agree with you. I wasn't clear..my bad. I mean the core principles. Its just weird to see people proclaiming themselves Christian when they have premarital sex..u know?

Where in the bible does it forbid pre-marital sex?

EDIT: Nevermind.

[Lipp]

Well, as far as I know the Shiite and Sunni conflict taking place as we speak isn't all that far from the old conflicts between Protestants and Catholics. One belief, two interpretations (branches), incapability of accepting one another, warfare and eventually accepted as it is today for christianity.

While there might be cases when religious beliefs might have prevented warfare there is also an abandonment of reason to it that has triggered warfare with no proper cause. Basically an easy way to find a reason to wage war, rather than being rational about it.

And wars based on religious beliefs are a whole lot more difficult to solve, always stands in the way of reconciliation and causes unrest in society even if an agreement is reached.

"Hey, let's go fight those guys over there!"
"Why?"
"Because we gain _____, ______ and ______!"
"Hmm...Nah, not worth it."

versus

"Hey, let's go fight those guys over there!"
"Why?"
"Because they don't believe like we do!"
"Ok!"

Now I just need a picture of a crusader screaming "God wills it!"

[Mish]

While there might be cases when religious beliefs might have prevented warfare there is also an abandonment of reason to it that has triggered warfare with no proper cause. Basically an easy way to find a reason to wage war, rather than being rational about it.

More like

"Hey, let's go fight those guys over there!"
"Why?"
"Because they are dirty <Insert race here>, they hate freedom and they don't believe what we do"
"Ok."

versus

Quote:
"Hey, let's go fight those guys over there!"
"Why?"
"Because they don't believe like we do!"
"Ok!"

Every war is abandonement of reason. You can't have reason when you're butchering people. Be it Religion or just plain propaganda, the abandonement of reason can be easily manufactured. Unfortunately modern times are a testament to that. Also see Wold War 1, World War 2, every single conflict Soviet Union was engaged in and many others. At least Religion blurs the race line a little (or at least tries).

Also, warfare always has a cause. It's just the "pretty" reasons why wars are started differ. One or the other reason will always be found as long as there is a need to fill.