lesa.., don't bother.., let's just pretend someone is right.., and let that person be Cain.., and let's call it a day.., no point in an internet argument.., it's like trying to explore the concept of g-d with someone who is religious.. they've been raised to think a certain way and believe certain things.., and aren't able to look outside of it.., everyone else who doesn't agree is "the devil"..
As for manipulation.., both of them can assume an endless amount of situations for which the other person is somehow manipulating them.. to quote Richard Bandler:
"He's trying to hypnotize me! He asked me "why don't you come over for dinner later"?"
John Grinder actually didn't object to this assumption.., they both sat there and analyzed the simple dinner invitation that was made to them..
Get ready for this.. Let's go ask some guys here on the forum.., some harmless questions:
- Maybe you dream of having sex with every one of the Playboy bunnies.., and Penthouse and Hustler models.., but let's just say that you met this girl.., you liked her.., and you ended up having sex.., would you dump her afterwards?
- Same situation.., only now.., you get to know her a little bit better.., and find out that she's been with 2 other guys before you.., all her friends and her family can attest to this.., and there are no other guys who claim to have had sex with her.., and she feels comfortable enough telling you about this on just the 2nd date.., how do you feel?
- Same situation.., only now.., you've been on a couple of dates.., and you feel that attraction.., that connection.., and the urge to have sex.., and you both end up having sex together.., do you think anything less of her? how do you feel?
- In all honesty.., how likely are you to stop calling and tell her.., "that was great.., see you around".., and move on to someone else?
- Has the fact that the two of you had sex together in such a short time and without breaking the bank or complicating your life or relationships with other people (friends/family) somehow changed the way you feel about her as long-term girlfriend or wife material?
I don't want to assume.., and I don't want to imply that the way I feel is representative of the majority of men.., let let's see how men feel about this.., besides me and Cain (not to imply that me or Cain are right or wrong on this issue, stance, or opinion.., it's an opinion.., and by definition.., neither right.., nor wrong)
The idea however.., is an easy sell.. to both men and women.., it's like selling the idea of g-d.. (moral appeal)
To men:
If you have sex right away.., you're a sex hungry animal who can't control himself.., sex is this very unnatural thing.., a most foul urge.., a sin.., and you must suppress it.., ignore it.., it's bad.., and people who feel the urge to have sex.., are bad people.., let's label them perverts.., jerks.., nymphs.., etc..
(negative self-image --> motivation to avoid behavior or deny urge)
If you wait.., you are a good person.., with morals.., civilized.., intelligent.., and only feel this urge when it is time to have children.. (this is how I was raised btw).., (other variations include.., "only after marriage".., or "when deeply in love")..
(positive self-image --> motivation to mimic image and role-play to fall into character)
To women:
If you have sex right away.., or too soon.., he will not respect you.., and will never be in a relationship with you.., and no way in hell will he marry you.., and to add some more to that.., we may even disown you.., blah blah blah.., besides.., men only care for one thing.., all men are looking for is to manipulate you to have sex with you.., and then leave you.., hurt you.., trick you.., etc.. the sooner you have sex.., the sooner you give up any control or power.., and let's also just add to that to top it off.., if you have sex too soon.., regardless of feels and connection or anything.., you are "easy".., and a "slut".., and a "wh0re".., and a bad person who will never go to heaven and most likely end up in hell..
(negative self-image + fear --> motivation to avoid behavior or deny urge.., and view situations through a negative lens)
The more he waits.., the more he loves you and cares about you.. (feeds directly into the need to feel loved.., wanted.., desired.., adored.., that's just an easy sales pitch to make to almost any girl).., and you are also a good person.., a smart person.., and he will respect you for it.., and fall even more in love with you.., and definitely consider you as a long-term girlfriend and wife.., forget about all the other guys you've had in the past.., the longer you wait.., the less they all matter.., trust me..
(positive self-image --> motivation to mimic image and role-play to fall into character.., deny sexual urge.., pretend there's no interest.., and even think that the longer a guy waits.., is correlated to how much he cares about you)
First of all.. HAHAHAHA! or as mis would say.., ajajajajaaaajaja..
Secondly.., imagine if men were raised to think:
"it doesn't matter if you got to know each other really well and love each other.., you've only known each other for just 2 years.., you can't just ask her to marry you.., she'll respect you less if you're that "easy".., besides.., she might value you less and divorce you quickly after you get married.., you have to wait at least until the 5th year before you can start to feel ready to pop the question.., the more she waits.., the more she loves you and cares about you.., if she can't wait until you're ready.., then she just doesn't love you.., she wasn't the right person.., and you have to find someone else who does care enough about you.."
When you're done laughing.., (or crying).., just realize exactly how equally retarded of a notion that would be.., and how far from reality that would be.., Not to imply that there wouldn't be women out there who would perhaps like to wait a little longer until they get married.., or that maybe there are even some women who would actually lose respect for the guy.., and would think that 2 years is a little too soon.., who knows? But in the grand scheme of things.., this wouldn't represent the sentiment of most women..
When a guy is willing to wait.., or break the bank.., or compromise his relationships with his friends or family.., or his life.., until you both have sex.., it's not because he loves you or cares about you.., it's because he's desperate.., and those are the guys most likely to fake relationships just to keep having sex.., denying their desperation and hiding behind either religion.., socially constructed moral appeals.., or "monogamy"..
If I was dating someone.., I would respect them if they told me.., "where is this relationship going? marriage is important to me.., and i'm not pressuring you into doing something you don't want.., but i'm not getting any younger.., and I need to know if you see us going somewhere.., or if i'm just wasting my time".. Much more than if they sat there.., got angry at me.., started doing things to try and force me to take some action.., call up their mother and have her talk to me.. etc..
That's the same courtesy I give.., a man (and a woman) isn't ashamed or afraid to voice their needs or wants.., if something is important to them.. they say it.. "marriage is important to me.., sex is important to me.., a relationship is important to me.., a family is important to me.., etc".., "and i'm not going to try and pressure you to do something you don't want to do.., but I just want to be honest.., and know if you find that important to you as well.., and if not.., then maybe we're not as compatible as we thought we were"..
Beyond being disrespectful and dishonest with the other person.., you're being disrespectful and dishonest to yourself if you don't voice your thoughts and instead deny them or pretend they don't matter..
If you can't stop the Wind, then you can't stop the Storm.