Apologists for Evil

[ecojeanne]

Mish, I won't comment further except to say I am extraordinarily disappointed with your response. Surprised, no. Disappointed, yes. Very much so.

Perhaps someone else will explain to you why, but I doubt you will accept any explanation that I give. Except to say that I don't have a deep contempt for much in this world. Except for the statement "Its not my job". Or "I can't".

BTW, this has nothing to do with my so-called 'privileged' life, either. As I explained to Eco, I don't think I am in any better position than most other people to effect changes to our society. In fact, I'm probably more of a social democrat than you have ever met in your life (thus far).

you must be spastic right? thats why you're always on here trying to tell everyone how smart you are and then you flip flop. i figured you out! you're mentally retarded. it's ok indi, you are special, very special j/k

altho i do think you have obsessive compulsive disorder but your doc can up the precription i'm sure. anyway indi, you have revealed that you feel guilty for being less intelligent, spoilt, ego driven coz you get none at home, ya can't gets no respect, i hear ya darlin. lots of women who live at home and spend their time cooking and cleaning for a disrespectful bunch will be inclined to live in a fantasy world and project the kind of person they want to be online. take some more drugs hon, you'll feel better.

[Charlie Boy II]

why's everyone always hating on the home makes?? I think it's an admirable thing to do: to sacrifice the egoism of a career for your family.

[ecojeanne]

who's hatin' i think they have a tough job.

[Charlie Boy II]

yeah but everybody always looks down their noses at them.

[ecojeanne]

i know and it's so unfair especially when sometimes their family can be disrespectful too. some are driven to madness but the ones who have a good husband and support network of family generally survive better.

[Yggdrasil]

I spend almost 2 years home, taking care of wife, kids, and household, when the missus was sick. Nobody has to tell me about the amount of hours a homemaker puts in every single day and the crap a homemaker has to deal with on daily base.

I prefer the term: domestic engineer

[IndiReloaded]

I wasn't talking about my ignorance. Nice projection though

Well, state your point clearly then, don't imply. Tho you do sound as if you have never stepped foot outside of the US in your life.

Again I am saying: refrain from stereotyping. There are two sides to the coin.

Ygg, you state this as some ideal, but you don't answer any of my very salient points: are you saying we can *never* draw conclusions from symbols? Of any sort? That I should not call the police in my example?

You are very silly if that is how you live your life. As I said previously, YOUR attitude would prevent any kind of conclusions from being made about any thing. Tolerance to the point of stupidity.

If you are in a foreign country, you adjust to their customs. That means if you visit, work or live in Saudi Arabia, you dress, live and behave accordingly. There's no room for 'western civilized arrogance'. That again goes both ways, Saudia Arabians who visit are 'western civilized countries', are expected to integrate just as well.

I agree, but this is exactly the problem. Many muslims (and other immigrants) come here and expect *others* to adapt to them as if they haven't left their country to come live in ours. I completely agree with the 'When in Rome' attitude. Otherwise, they should GTFO. However, that said, I do believe there are certain rights that should be held no matter where one is. And the casual rape and 2nd class treatment of women in these countries is something that shouldn't be tolerated. Did you even read the World Affairs article I posted?

Now.. to get back on topic: what does a piece of clothing have to do with all of this? Nothing.

I see. So, you don't have a problem with citizens wearing police uniforms and pretending to give out tickets? Or someone dressed in a white gown & swastika handing out lollipops to young kids? You would find that amusing, no doubt. I mean, they are just clothes, right? One can't make *any* kind of guess about the person from the symbols they wear?

While the muslim garb doesn't necessarily say anything about the person wearing it, it DOES represent generally oppression of these women, and its a tool used as such. Else, why those 15 girls left to burn in that school b/c the 'morality police' wanted them to be dressed before they could leave?

But yeah, Ygg. You are so right, we shouldn't stereotype about such things.

What many conveniently forget to mention is (oh yes, it may crumble your worldview): that in many (if not most) Muslim countries, there are many voices going up more equality, better treatment, etc.

See above and read my second link. Get an education, Ygg, beyond wikipedia.

What many (again conveniently) forget on top of that, is that this is not our fight, but their fight. We can not 'liberate' them. That's theirs to achieve.

This is bullshit. We can lead by example. And we can educate their children. And especially not tolerate this BS in our own country.

Whatever it takes I guess to stay stuck in what I consider western stereotypical, hatefull, racist and biassed views. I refuse to bring myself down to that level.

Good for you. You also seem to refuse to do anything useful in this regard. All fine ideals, but in the end, you are an apologist of the sort this thread is about. Useless, except to hinder those who might actually help.

For you it's a matter of being right, for me, it's a matter of seeing both sides of the coin and understand what is really going on

Understanding is only the first step, Ygg. The beginning. If that is as far as you go, then repeat my last point.

[IndiReloaded]

you must be spastic right? thats why you're always on here trying to tell everyone how smart you are and then you flip flop. i figured you out! you're mentally retarded. it's ok indi, you are special, very special j/k

altho i do think you have obsessive compulsive disorder but your doc can up the precription i'm sure. anyway indi, you have revealed that you feel guilty for being less intelligent, spoilt, ego driven coz you get none at home, ya can't gets no respect, i hear ya darlin. lots of women who live at home and spend their time cooking and cleaning for a disrespectful bunch will be inclined to live in a fantasy world and project the kind of person they want to be online. take some more drugs hon, you'll feel better.

Are you just upset I want you to think for yourself for a change, Eco?

Its okay, try it. Shouldn't hurt too much. Crazy Eco.

As for the rest, I'll wait for someone smarter to post.

yeah but everybody always looks down their noses at them.

LOL, your mom isn't what I'd consider a homemaker, CB. You had a great example of someone who was able to do both.

[little pingoin]

In reference to the How Muslims are Treated in the US video:

Everyone treats everyone else like ass here. We're a culture based largely on competition and take great pride in our superiority, despite our ignorance.

Google any minority group, and you'll find plenty of evidence of that. Like any blended family, we're still learning how to play nice with our new siblings.

That's not the impression I got from Gribble's post. The impression I got is that the Muslim women need to be blamed once again, that they should be made feel not respected that by wearing the Hijab they are bringing what's coming onto themselves. That by wearing the Hijab (a symbol of their culture) they somehow deserve to be mistreated. That's what I strongly disagree with.

I'm not here to champion Gribble (the man can stand on his own two feet quite well), but my take on the comment referenced is that it was meant for women who continue to allow themselves to passively remain part of the problem by way of simply doing nothing at all. By donning the symbol of their oppression, they utter a silent approval of the rapes and beatings and maltreatment of their sisters, daughters, mothers, aunts, nieces and grandmothers. It was said even here - if they choose to wear it outside of their country, then it can't really be all that bad, can it? Yes, it can be, and it is. But they're safe in the US or the UK (anywhere but their mother country) where that kind of shit won't be tolerated, so what do they care? It is saddening, isn't it?

Gribble's comment was harsh, but it was not entirely uncalled for. The US would be an entirely different place today if everyone who disapproved of slavery simply shook their head and turned away. That's what these women are doing.

[IndiReloaded]

The US would be an entirely different place today if everyone who disapproved of slavery simply shook their head and turned away. That's what these women are doing.

I agree Ping. In fact, apologists have nearly muddled plenty of things up in history. Look how long it took for Britain to get help in WWII. If Churchill wasn't such a... stereotyping, stubborn bigot (LOL--those damned Nazis), Urp would be a lot different today. Its a wonder that Jewish folks don't give him more credit. But, he too was called an arrogant ass (and many other things). He wasn't nice about it, but damn, that man was right and did what Chamberlain was too much of a pussy to do.

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.

-- Sir Winston Churchill

This one is for Ygg, Eco, and Mish:

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

-- Sir Winston Churchill

[little pingoin]

What many conveniently forget to mention is (oh yes, it may crumble your worldview): that in many (if not most) Muslim countries, there are many voices going up more equality, better treatment, etc.

What many (again conveniently) forget on top of that, is that this is not our fight, but their fight. We can not 'liberate' them. That's theirs to achieve.

Ygg, it is not for one culture to impose its beliefs and values on another culture, but when it comes to basic human rights and the duty of the strong to protect the weak it is necessary to fight the good fight. We cannot save those that do not want to be saved but how much of that is mere acceptance as the result of not knowing any other way?

Yes, ultimately it will come to Islam's women and their loved ones having to do the actual dirty work of changing the cultural beliefs they've all accepted for so long, but would they be as successful without the knowledge that their ambitions have strong support? Everyone needs a cheerleader through the hard times. That's the whole purpose behind battered women's shelters, child welfare agencies, and your own charitable organization. You educate them and show them that there is another way. Then you encourage them and support them.

I imagine that mass outrage directed toward the burqa (the symbol of their oppression) is quite encouraging to those that are, as you say, speaking out and will only further their efforts by rousing more of their own to their cause.

[IndiReloaded]

Apologists are the worst sort of cowards. They hide behind words like 'tolerance' with moral platitudes and no plan of action, except not to act.

But they WILL have an opinion, oh yes. But notice its only to those who are 'safe' to have an opinion with: those actually trying to improve the lot of others. But they won't actually confront the bullies and wrongdoers directly, oh no. That is someone ELSE'S job.

It reminds me of someone who will freeze as a bully runs past, but then will stick out a leg or foot to trip the person actually pursuing the bully. Humans are a sad lot, sometimes. If you can't help, fine. But at least don't hinder.

[Mish]

By donning the symbol of their oppression, they utter a silent approval of the rapes and beatings and maltreatment of their sisters, daughters, mothers, aunts, nieces and grandmothers.

Well, once again we are back to square one. Maybe to YOU it is a symbol of oppression, but for many Muslim women it is a symbol of their culture and not a symbol of mistreatment. This is what a lot of people fail to understand, that one cultural object can represent many things and just because to you it speaks oppression to someone else it speaks history or culture or cultural achievement. Once you start looking down on an object of cultural significance it's equivalent of you looking down on the person and the people who are represented by it. So be very careful when you make statements like "silent approval of rape by wearing it" you may be unwillingly alienating a lot of people (the same people you claim to support) and make them resistant to you without even realizing it. When you say things like that you are not attacking people's behavior, you are attacking people's culture meaning you are attacking all people of that culture indiscriminately. There is nothing good or peaceful or supportive about that.

I agree with what Yggdrasil said, the object itself is nothing. It's the teachings that shape the behavior that need to be targeted.

[vashti]

I find it odd that men seem to be the ones defending the wearing of the burqa.

[little pingoin]

The burqa, in and of itself, is a harmless object. Cloth.

Mish, we agree, and why the dog keeps chasing its tail I just don't understand.

When a Muslim woman can be free in her home country to reject the burqa without fear of reprisal, we will once again see what is good in mankind. Until then, the burqa, for all it's worth, is a symbol, and it's not all pink bunnies and warm fuzzy feelings.