Apologists for Evil

[little pingoin]

I find it odd that men seem to be the ones defending the wearing of the burqa.

Perhaps because in nearly every culture there is a long and shameful history of female objectification and oppression by males.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a feminist by any means. However, I also find it sadly ironic that it is often the men in charge deciding what is 'right' for the females under their thumb, often without their input.

[IndiReloaded]

I agree that tolerance is a good thing, but only to a certain degree. In my part of the world, we have some pretty wacky cult action going on. I don't know if Ireland has ever come up with anything like David Koresh, but we seem to be able to churn out one of those about every 10 years. Recently, there was that big news story about young teen girls being forced to marry old men in Texas- did any of you hear about that? Or about the girl that just died of diabetes because her parents believed that illness comes from sin and nothing can heal you but God's will?

That's some bullshit right there, and just because it's all wrapped up in someone's spiritual beliefs doesn't mean it's something that should be supported. I, personally, feel that a lot of sharia is equally unsupportable.

Eco, you can preach tolerance all day, but you should do some research into Islamic law to see just what it is you're defending. No, not all Muslims are hatemongering people who can't wait to see the squirming deaths of everyone who doesn't embrace their beliefs just like not all Christians are white hood wearing barking lunatics who preach fire and brimstone to anyone unlike themselves, but some of them are, and the extremists can be dangerous.

This goes for EVERY religion. I'm not anti-Muslim any more than I'm anti-Christian, but I don't think extremism is good for anybody and I don't think we need to treat everyone's beliefs with kid gloves because they're "spiritual". People shouldn't be allowed to let their children die of curable diseases. People shouldn't be allowed to form groups like the KKK. People shouldn't be allowed to oppress women the way Islam often does so shamefully.

Not even in the name of "tolerance".

Best post of the thread^.

[Mish]

Add to it people shouldn't be allowed to exploit children and use slave labour, shouldn't be allowed to oppress minorities and poor people, shouldn't be allowed to oppress and invade other countries, shouldn't be allowed to detain people and keep them imprisoned indefinitely in other countries or torture them and you have it all set. If we say Islam = KKK I think we should also say Western culture = KKK as well. Because that's where sweeping generalizations land us in the end.

[Asip4u]

Everything that needs to be said is right here. I'm also VERY surprised that this topic has been exhausted to a point where i see a lot of hatred on here. When i was in HS, i had this amazing teacher for my History class. She was in her late 50's and knew so much about everything...Her classes (in fact most of the school) were full of foreign students who adored her...She was born in Ukraine but came here when she was a child..One thing that she always talked about was respect and she said that it is not something you get right away, it is something you have to EARN. A lot of you act like you're above so many people and that attitude seems to do more talking then anything else. It reminds me of these politicians, doctors, lawyers, that use to come to my coffee shop and be all rude to me and my co-worker..One time, this doctor guy comes into the store and literally throws the money on the table where it flies all over and some hits my female co-worker...He gave her this look like (eww you're black and work at a coffee shop so you're on a lower level then me). Bad shit happens everywhere because there are bad people all over so stop generalizing and blaming huge group of innocent girls/women for it.

Well, once again we are back to square one. Maybe to YOU it is a symbol of oppression, but for many Muslim women it is a symbol of their culture and not a symbol of mistreatment. This is what a lot of people fail to understand, that one cultural object can represent many things and just because to you it speaks oppression to someone else it speaks history or culture or cultural achievement. Once you start looking down on an object of cultural significance it's equivalent of you looking down on the person and the people who are represented by it. So be very careful when you make statements like "silent approval of rape by wearing it" you may be unwillingly alienating a lot of people (the same people you claim to support) and make them resistant to you without even realizing it. When you say things like that you are not attacking people's behavior, you are attacking people's culture meaning you are attacking all people of that culture indiscriminately. There is nothing good or peaceful or supportive about that.

I agree with what Yggdrasil said, the object itself is nothing. It's the teachings that shape the behavior that need to be targeted.

[Yggdrasil]

It's amazing how some people weave all kinds of unrelated issues together into one large vision of something and thus creating a distorted picture.

It's even more amazing to see how those same people go to the extreme with extended circular reasoning to justify such distorted picture.

And no, I am not talking about me.

[Only-virgins]

The point of it is not to reveal your face/body while you're in public. Women are expected to wear it because as you and i both know how guys are and Islam you should only be sexually visible to your man...If they see a girl that shows a lot of skin, some guys don't just imagine, some guys take things into their own hands.

All I know is if I was a women and someone told me what to wear I would kill them. Seriously. Don't be naked should be the only rule as to clothing rules in general are stupid.

[Yggdrasil]

Add to it people shouldn't be allowed to exploit children.

Interesting you mention that. I have my own thoughts on that.

Child labour is illegal, yet, in our "western civilized world" a 16 year old (legaly a child) is allowed to legaly flip burgers at McDonalds with consent of the parents. At the same time this 16 year old can't legaly drink alcoholic beverages, with or without the consent of the parents.

Doesn't that sound a bit hypocritical at least?

[ecojeanne]

no-one has any right to be judge and jury but the oppressed themselves. they have the right to speak out and say no-they are uk citizens. look at animal activists, while they believe animals should not be mistreated-which is nice and good of them-they go to an extreme to get their point across as does anyone who acts self righteous. it's BS. stop talkin' BS. if you want to stop oppression why don't you start at home, stop buying slave labor goods, stop feeding the industries that ruin 3rd world countries and even our own now in the 1st world. most of the comments here are fckin bullshit self righteous crap. and ya know what it was brought on by the sensationalists in the media, the engine used by government to brainwash people into not thinking for themselves and going with the consensus no matter how absurd. with talk like this doing the rounds about the burqa well it just adds to anger on both sides and fuels it until it burns along with all the other crap being fed to you. mish, ygg and asip thanks for actually using your noggins for yourselves. And to the rest of you maybe you should actually try to understand what critical thinking actually is.

[leafer224]

It's amazing how some people weave all kinds of unrelated issues together into one large vision of something and thus creating a distorted picture.

The most salient point in this thread. It's really important that we get back to the point to not distort any further.

The opening post featured a video of a man blaming the left-wing for hypocrisy when it comes to issues of human rights and freedom. He suggests left-wing people conform to anything to not seem unequal and prejudiced even when said thing is arguably a symbol of inequality.(ie burqas)

So what's the "right" way to protect and maintain human rights and individual freedom in the world? That is really what people should be asking themselves. I'll use the idea that the media is affecting our children to illustrate my point.(an issue that was brought up early in this thread)

On the issue of the medias affect on our children, we see two different camps again. Some see the media playing a major role in what our kids emulate and become, others think it plays no or a very small role. My opinion on this is quiet simple and you get there by asking some key questions: Does one become violent because they see a violent movie or because they see a real life person, an influential one (their dads, moms, other family) being violent? Does a person abuse others sexually because they see some sex scenes in a movie or do they abuse because they were abused themselves? I think the answers are quiet evident. The biggest injustice is that we treat our kids like they are less, that they are stupid, and we are generally condescending to them..sounds familiar. (just like people here are looking down on other religions, cultures, etc) Yet, studies show, that by 7 or 8yrs old, a large part of development is complete. Point being, we often don't see or we forget what large role REAL people play by their actions. We find it more important to be condescending and talk a big game (which has little affect, just like media) instead of actually physically showing and doing things which actually has an affect on people.

So going back to the main issue of this thread...how do you protect and maintain human rights and freedoms? I believe you do it through education of the public and the belief that what we do as individuals has the greatest amount of power. Ultimately, you can't claim our society is superior and then create restrictions on clothing..just as they do. If you actually believe a hijab or burqa is a sign of oppression (which i've never heard from any muslim women btw) it is the job of that society to assimilate that person through the social fabric and not through regulation.

When you suggest that men would still be controlling and abusive despite living in our great society, with different laws, you do realize that can't be an indictment on the extreme parts of the religion anymore but only on the actions of these specific men? When they join our society, they are no different than the white guy who physically abuses his gf or wife. They both do it because their environment taught them that..whether it was through a religion or not makes no difference. So our society, having better opportunities, infrastructure, social programs, and so forth, should be able to deal with it. Our society should be able to enact positive change to a large majority of these people. I have seen it with my own eyes so I do believe it happens.

But if you don't believe this will happen, you don't actually believe our society is better.

[ecojeanne]

I find it interesting the name govern-ment ….to govern is to control…mente is mind. So close and so similar. Government is put in place to control the masses with laws etc. how can you enforce laws if you don’t control their minds? Consensus is only brought about by government approved ‘education’ and the media projecting what supposedly the consensus wants and actually what they are. Just because people agree doesn’t make it right. Just because George Bush got all you Americans to believe you were under attack by the Arabs and that any day America would be blown away in some horrible nuclear catastrophe, doesn’t mean it’s true. The media is a very good tool. As I’m sure many of you already know. But I bet the seed is planted tho right? Osama is the cause and he is Arab. ‘Let’s get them JUST in case’. Eventually this will become a consensus that any religion is the cause of trouble. The renamed Lisbon treaty is the EU constitution that has been rejected 3 times already-we are still being asked to vote again, I guess they didn’t like the people’s answer 3 TIMES (ahem no we will be forced to agree by mind numbing fear using the media-it has started already.)-they will be making us EU citizens that will take precedence over each individual countries citizenship, bringing in the death penalty and banning religion. Religion is not the cause. Looks like Bush already signed up to Mexico and Canada; the union of all three and Obama looks like he’s stickin to it WITHOUT the people’s say. Think for yourselves.

People don’t have to do what other people say. People don’t have to agree with the consensus. People agree out of fear. People kill out of fear. These Arab women and you are responding out of fear. Just because their parents tell them it’s time to wear the burqa doesn’t mean they have to. They do it to conform. Just like many western societies do a billion other things to conform. The education that should be taught to society is to think for yourselves, but that would cause all out chaos as far as the governments are concerned and so you are all taught to conform otherwise you will be banished (well that is the fear implanted). I wonder how many people are actually afraid to say anything against their government including anything in the slightest pro Arab. I’m sure quite a number. So many have been highlighted in the media and arrested That’s fear instilled. So that means they can instill fear and anger in you by their tool the media to get you to react on any given issue they see fit, like the burqa.

[Gigabitch]

[I]It was said even here - if they choose to wear it outside of their country, then it can't really be all that bad, can it? Yes, it can be, and it is. But they're safe in the US or the UK (anywhere but their mother country) where that kind of shit won't be tolerated, so what do they care?

But they're not really safe here. The law protects them, but to get that protection they must go against their entire families, their culture and their religion. Unlikely.

People don’t have to do what other people say. People don’t have to agree with the consensus. People agree out of fear. People kill out of fear. These Arab women and you are responding out of fear. Just because their parents tell them it’s time to wear the burqa doesn’t mean they have to.

Oh, right. Here's how that conversation would go: "Father, I'm not going to wear the burqa."
(father to wife) "Why have you raised this child to be so disrespectful to me? Now I must beat you both."

[Gribble]

Interesting you mention that. I have my own thoughts on that.

Child labour is illegal, yet, in our "western civilized world" a 16 year old (legaly a child) is allowed to legaly flip burgers at McDonalds with consent of the parents. At the same time this 16 year old can't legaly drink alcoholic beverages, with or without the consent of the parents.

Doesn't that sound a bit hypocritical at least?

Flipping burgers is a bit different from stitching together Nikes 16 hours a day in a cramped warehouse. Though I have to wonder what would happen to the families of those children who find themselves in sweatshops. I would imagine those boys are there for a reason. Perhaps Father died and Mother's not allowed to work because culture and tradition must be respected, leaving Son to struggle desperately to keep his family fed and sheltered.

Or perhaps Father just wants more cash so he threatens his son with violence and forces him into the sweatshop.

I just love how Western civilization is blamed entirely. Nevermind that these ohter countries encourage it, demand it, allow it, whichever way you prefer to look at it. Nevermind that most westerners are disgusted by it and many boycott such products. It's all our fault and we should be ashamed.

Bull. Shit.

[IndiReloaded]

Apologist ideals, Giga. But the irony is, how many of them have ever actually taken in a beaten woman?

I do agree with the newb's point that our society will integrate them. Their kids don't wear burqua, so I suppose its a waiting game but not allowing the worst of things to go on while time does its thing. So there IS a place for regulation and not tolerating boundaries that are pressed beyond what is acceptable to OUR society. They are here, so they follow our rules. Same as if we go there.

The only point I have to add is for Eco, since she seems a bit confused about the word origin of government (its French). I suppose I have an advantage in this regard, Irish folks are not known for their beautiful french accents.

En fait, 'ment' en français (qui est le mot origine) moyens mensonges. C'est un autre mot pour cela. Avec un peu de chance, tu peut comprends cette phrase.

[misombra]

i wanna call the police and complain about all the white people in my neighborhood.

[ecojeanne]

again indi you mistake my words for what you want to hear. i didn't actually say where the word originates.