Discuss amongst yourselves

[IndiReloaded]

I can't argue with those since I have no way of measuring how fulfilling they are. However, I'd be willing to bet that sex would still come out on top. I'm sure you could go your whole life without knowing the joy of passing your doctorate exam or having someone thank you for helping them, but the same cannot be said of sex.

Bwahahahaha! Okay Neo, whatever you say. You & I (and everyone else here) knows you are just being ridiculous. Have a bit of trouble admitting someone else might have a point?

Sex is fleeting, these other things are not. Please note I am not saying sex isn't great. It is. But, as you say, you have yet to experience anything like what I posted. Its like trying to explain a gourmet meal to someone who has only ever eaten gruel.

This is worth reposting, as its relevant to the topic & I happen to agree:

That's a given, Indi. Sex is short compared the numerous hours of the day, week, month. It's great, it's reaffirming, it's ecstacy, it's part of it. Just like evolving into an adult with a copy of the Sears catalogue hidden in a bathroom cupboard. You still have your friends, and as you grow older, and have no need for catalogues, the object of your sexual attraction is also your best friend and family.

[NeoSeminole]

CAM says:

"Seriously, you have some deep-seated psychological issues."

kewl, bro!

"My problem has always been that I can't find someone with whom I can fall in love. Your problem is that you don't know what love is. In fact, you won't even trust yourself or your partner(s) to develop such a feeling.

you assume I've never been in love.

"You and the OP have something in common. Your temple is your penis. Your entire interaction with the female of the species is dictated by your own love/hate relationship with your penis, and your own body, in general."

awesome!

[brightgirl]

Topic of the day:

Why do girls/women "give it up" for the price of dinner and a movie?

I'm gonna say they are either desperate for attention/confirmation or they're simply wanting sex, and don't want to come right out and say that.
Women I know aren't that desperate, and are way more straight forward. They'd just ask you for it.

[NeoSeminole]

IndiReloaded says:

"Bwahahahaha! Okay Neo, whatever you say. You & I (and everyone else here) knows you are just being ridiculous. Have a bit of trouble admitting someone else might have a point?"

how am I being ridiculous?

"Sex is fleeting, these other things are not. Please note I am not saying sex isn't great. It is. But, as you say, you have yet to experience anything like what I posted. Its like trying to explain a gourmet meal to someone who has only ever eaten gruel."

I don't need to experience the things you mentioned to know our brains aren't hardwired to find them as fulfilling as sex.

[IndiReloaded]

Neo. How can you comment on something you have never experienced except to give your *opinion*?

I am telling you, as someone who HAS experienced both great sex and other great things, that you are simply describing something you know nothing about.

As for brain hardwiring, you don't know what you are describing there either. Show me the research paper that says that sexual gratification produces as much pleasure as any of the things I mentioned. Noone has ever been able to quantify those things and I am unaware of even an attempt to measure 'pleasure' in a way that would support your comment.

If you are going to argue biology with an actual research biologist, doll, you'd better know what you are doing.

Okay. You are young and have lots to do in your life. But if you want to think that, at 20-something, you already know/have seen it all, then you may as well just jump off that cliff I mentioned.

You haven't experienced deep love, Neo. I'm probably one of the few posters here who remembers how broken you were with your LTR from a few years back. I think it made you more jaded than you like to admit. IMO, you are trying to compensate w/sex. Lots of young men at your age do this. But, as any number of men here (Doc, Cam, Gribble, CB) will tell you, its pretty damn easy to get. What is harder is to find someone who compliments you as a partner (sex is a great part of this, yes, of course) and you haven't been as successful at that. Yet. Once you are, you will see what I and other are talking about.

But right now, you are posting from a position of ignorance. Its what I said: you are saying that you don't need to try a gourmet meal to decide that gruel is all you need to stay alive.

Gruel will keep you alive. But gourmet will help you LIVE. Big difference sweetie.

[IndiReloaded]

Just to preempt the mouse model for orgasm addiction (Cam's point about mice who will forego food for orgasm): that is a real result.

But, I read that original paper as a grad student. What Cam didn't post is that those mice are used as an *addiction model*. He alluded to it in his post.

Turns out, there are at least 3 types of mice that are used in studying this model: those who are suspectible to orgasmic addiction, those who aren't, and those who are somewhere in between.

I'll try to find the article link later.

EDIT - Here's the ref for those students w/access to a library:

Olds, J., Milner, P. 1954. Positive reinforcement produced by electrical stimulation of septal area and other regions of rat brain. J.Comp. Physiolo. Psycholo. 47, 419–427

Here's a wiki link for those who don't but are interested:

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbic_system#Function[/url]

Anyway, if you extend the analogy to humans that research might suggest that those who find sexual orgasm gratifying above all else are actually expressing their genetic tendency toward an addictive personality. But, mice are notoriously bad models for human disease as any cancer researcher will tell you (mice can be given tumours much more readily than humans).

So, for this reason and just b/c I'm an optimist, I like to believe that people are more than mice. That we can choose to be more than our genes. In fact, research on identical twins says we are a product of approximately 60% genetics and 40% environment.

FWIW.

[bluesummer]

If sex were all about the orgasms, then I'd be pissed at all the occasions when he got off and I didn't.

There are many greater things in life, more fulfilling things, than sex and orgasms. There are more important things in relationships than sex. If my fiance's penis fell off I'd certainly be disappointed, but I wouldn't leave him because what I get from him outside the bedroom is so much bigger than what I get in it. He is my best friend, and he challenges me on an intellectual and a personal level. I get fulfillment from these things that sex could NEVER compensate for.

That point is not up for argument, because it's the way it is. If you don't agree, it's because you aren't with or have never been with someone who adds to your life in this way. I hope everyone experiences it, but not everyone will.

As for CAM's original post well........I've never had sex for the price of anything. I've slept with someone I went out once or twice with, but it was because I felt like it. I'm a little more sexually liberal than some though.

[CAM]

Yes, Indi's posts are very well stated and I agree.

In terms of the mice issue. I was born into a family of behaviorists, at least those who believe that the theory describes and explains human behavior quite well (no, I did not have a Skinner Bed).

That being said, yes the mice have predilections but they can also be trained to pursue sexual orgasm. It is my contention that society, through media and changing social norms, trains people to believe that sexual orgasm is the reward to pursue. Might be one of the reasons why so many young women are so easily "got" these days and why some men think that orgasm is more important than love.

[IndiReloaded]

Yes, Indi's posts are very well stated and I agree.

In terms of the mice issue. I was born into a family of behaviorists, at least those who believe that the theory describes and explains human behavior quite well (no, I did not have a Skinner Bed).

LOL, so I guess for you the Dinner Bell has a whole world of meaning beyond the norm?

What's a Skinner Bed? I know what a Box is (I used to train pigeons).

That being said, yes the mice have predilections but they can also be trained to pursue sexual orgasm. It is my contention that society, through media and changing social norms, trains people to believe that sexual orgasm is the reward to pursue. Might be one of the reasons why so many young women are so easily "got" these days and why some men think that orgasm is more important than love.

Interesting. Not sure if I agree. I would have said the problem is that love & sex have been equated by the media. People are confused, they aren't actively seeking orgasm, just what they think its a substitute for.

Of course, I'm largely making this up as I go along, Cam. I'll have to think a bit more about it. Maybe you are even saying the same thing.

What I do think is that we are doing our young a disservice by allowing them to be so entitled. As you know, there is a place for intermittent reinforcement. It teaches one to cope with a certain amount of frustration, which is something I know many of this younger generation do not know how to deal with. Frustration isn't always a bad thing if it causes one to learn the value of persistence. Having a sense of persistence also prevents one from making easier, and perhaps less desirable, choices.

I wonder if those mice strains that are prone to addiction would be less susceptible if they were intermittently reinforced as pups? Someone *must* have tried this already? I don't know much about this field tho, I freely admit it.

I do know that I am quite comfortable with allowing my son to experience a certain amount of frustration in his school work for this reason. It wasn't always that way, the temptation to intervene was very strong. But he is starting to appreciate the satisfaction of 'job well done' when he struggles through something to a successful conclusion.

Is this too far off-topic for you, Cam? I can probably find a way to link it to the original topic, but I was kind of hoping someone else would make the connection (not you).

[NeoSeminole]

IndiReloaded says:

"Neo. How can you comment on something you have never experienced except to give your *opinion*?"

b/c I don't need to experience what your talking about to argue my point. How is this any different than you arguing with someone who claims to have spoken to God? They can just as easily ask you the same question.

"I am telling you, as someone who HAS experienced both great sex and other great things, that you are simply describing something you know nothing about."

and I'm telling you that you're delusional if you think the examples you listed are more rewarding than fulfilling our ultimate purpose in life.

"If you are going to argue biology with an actual research biologist, doll, you'd better know what you are doing."

there are far too many branches of biology for you to know everything. So I'll take my chances with you on this subject. It would be like a physician trying to punk me out of a discussion about exercise and nutrition.

"Okay. You are young and have lots to do in your life. But if you want to think that, at 20-something, you already know/have seen it all, then you may as well just jump off that cliff I mentioned."

show me where I said I know/ have seen it all.

"You haven't experienced deep love, Neo."

hahaha, sure.

[NeoSeminole]

bluesummer says:

"If sex were all about the orgasms, then I'd be pissed at all the occasions when he got off and I didn't."

sex isn't just about orgasms. It's about the bond shared between 2 people united in intimacy and pleasure. The idiots here keep putting words in my mouth by saying it's only about the orgasm.

[misombra]

chinese medicine say too much sex steal your chi.

[CAM]

yes, Skinner Box. My mistake.

[ecojeanne]

Topic of the day:

Why do girls/women "give it up" for the price of dinner and a movie?

it has nothing to do with the price, it has to do with they are horny or desperate or just like the guy and want to get some.

that's like asking why does any woman sleep with a man. each woman is different but dinner isn't the dealbreaker in majority of decent women.

both men and women want some lovin', what's the point in trying to analyze someone else’s choices.

honestly i get so much disapproval from my friends because i haven't given it up for a bit of fun. i won't be forced into conforming and that's the psychology going on these days. women are sometimes convincing themselves it's what they want when it's just what society and their friends have told them is acceptable these days. it's neither acceptable or unacceptable, i don't partake in telling girls to go for it or not to go for it. i'm just so sick of that pressure from people to conform. maybe women are 'thinking' thats what they want. people generally don't think for themselves anymore and want or think they need to sleep with someone and then immediately after sleeping with them decide they want 'the package' then and call the guy an asshole for not complying-of course i'm generalising but it's a general question you asked.

[IndiReloaded]

IndiReloaded says:

"Neo. How can you comment on something you have never experienced except to give your *opinion*?"

b/c I don't need to experience what your talking about to argue my point. How is this any different than you arguing with someone who claims to have spoken to God? They can just as easily ask you the same question.

Well, unlike God, these things exist and you can go out and experience them for yourself to make an informed decision. You don't have to take my word for it. So, in this particular argument Neo you are the one arguing on faith, not me. I am arguing based on solid experience of *both* (sex & non-sex gratification). You are the one arguing from a lack of experience in at least one.

Again, gourmet vs. gruel. But some people are perfectly happy with gruel, they don't aspire to more. I suppose that's you and that's perfectly fine.

I think a decade from now, you will think differently. I certainly hope so, for your sake.

"I am telling you, as someone who HAS experienced both great sex and other great things, that you are simply describing something you know nothing about."

and I'm telling you that you're delusional if you think the examples you listed are more rewarding than fulfilling our ultimate purpose in life.

Well, if I'm delusional at least its by choice after having explored the options that are out there. The same cannot be said for you, young Neo.

Your argument is flagging. You haven't posted any biological support for your claim

our brains aren't hardwired to find them as fulfilling as sex

Are you going to actually provide support for this^, or shall we agree this is merely the unsupported opinion of a young 20-something with little education and no experience with long term relationships, children, marriage or a career?

You are allowed to admit when you are out of your depth, Neo. Really, it might even be good for you.