Difficulty of breaking off an engagement

[Only-virgins]

the whole thing blew up in ov's face.

Yea, you got that right.

[Only-virgins]

I see. So, you would say that someone who hands someone a gun and then watches them rob/rape/murder someone doesn't have any responsibility in the matter?

Your ethics are wanting, young man.

That is a pretty bad analogy. I don't see how you can compare it to someone intentionally giving someone else a gun. Do you blame gun shop owners for all firearm related deaths? I don't.

[IndiReloaded]

My analogy doesn't have to be perfect, just make the point.

I am not suggesting you are in any way responsible for her actions. You are, however, responsible for yours.

Where is your boundary? Apparently its okay to cheat with an engaged woman. What about a married one? Or a married one with children?

Sure, you can always say its her decision. But what about her children? Do they have a choice? Would you still say that its her/their problem? Or would you be a decent human being and say 'no' to something b/c you don't want to contribute to someone else's bad judgment and the fallout from it.

As for the gun, well, how about drunk driving? Would you feel bad if you allowed someone you know to exercise bad judgement and drive drunk, perhaps killing someone? Would you simply say it was their choice?

Personal responsibility is about controlling yourself. This includes not taking advantage of others, even when you know they can't control themselves.

[IndiReloaded]

I'm simply branching off the analogy that you compared to OV's situation. If we don't let the person who takes ownership of the gun assume complete responsibility for his actions, that by somehow providing them with that instrument we abetted in their misuse of it, then why stop there? A majority of guns end up in the wrong hands, should we hold the manufacturers and dealers responsible when they're used in a crime too?

Let's vilify the abortion doctors who are terminating pregnancies, let's go after pharmacist's who are filling rx's for the pill. They're knowingly and willingly aiding in the destruction of or potential for human life, there's no two ways about it. Why should they be given a free moral pass outside of religion extremists? Why should they be abetting a morally degenerate female who isn't strong enough to keep her legs closed?

The difference b/t OVs situation and the gun provider is intent:

If a gun seller knows or suspects someone is unstable then they should not sell that firearm.

OV - you know full well you cheated with someone who is committed elsewhere. You admit you wouldn't like it if it happened to you. You have sex with full intent to do harm. However ridiculous it may seem, there are even laws against this kind of thing: 'Alienation of affection' suits are not uncommon. What determines their success is often--intent. If you knew what you were doing and did it willingly, then you are held responsible.

In other word, if you had a fling and didn't know she was engaged, that is entirely different.

Primo - the abortion/BCP argument is just silly. I don't view either as wrong. Who is the injured party in those cases? An unborn child? A *potential* child? Sorry, that argument doesn't fly with me. You can't prove intent to harm in such cases b/c there is noone [demonstrable] to harm.

[Primo]

There's no real connection between what I posted and having a night of intense physical passion with someone Indi. But if you're going to compare the morals of a single person having sex with an involved (not married) one, to someone who would give a homicidal person a loaded gun, why stop there?

Some people believe that abstinence is the only moral and ethical choice. The doctors and pharmacists who aid a female that wants to have premarital sex or abort their unwanted pregnancies would fit neatly into the category you created as immoral and lacking in integrity. Who are we to judge that as right or wrong? Our individual moral and ethical codes aren't superior to anyone else's, they're just ours. Sadly, some of these doctors have been murdered, so it does go to show you how insanely passionate people are about their own code.

In your line of thinking Indi, the fiance is the victim...but in reality don't you think OV or anyone for that matter would be unknowingly doing them a favor by proving that their partner isn't committed? Wouldn't you want to know? I'd rather have my fiancee cheat, find out and then break up as opposed to marry them, wouldn't you too? This guy will be thanking OV 10 years from now when he's married to a good woman and this chick is a distant memory.

[IndiReloaded]

Primo you don't understand my point at all, which, given your position isn't surprising.

First of all: I do not believe the girl is a victim in the slightest. She made her choices and are responsible for them. Same for OV. He made a choice as well that is no less responsible than hers, IMO.

The problem, Primo, is the lack of consistency. If you told me you believed that sex should be open between any consenting adults, and that the concept of cheating was a non-issue to you, then fine. Its not my own values, but I can understand your position and can see the logic of it.

But you claim its okay to cheat with someone but is unacceptable to happen to you. There is a lack of consistency: you would hold your partner to a different standard than you hold yourself.

Your argument that such cheating is for some 'higher purpose' is just laughable. In that case, what you would really do is get the girl into a compromised position, then drop her before you actually have sex. Preferably with proof you can show to her soon-to-be ex.

But how many partners of the women you have cheated with have you actually fessed up to? None, I'm sure.

You should read Eugene Onegin. You have yet to meet a Tatiana, I suspect. Not sure if this makes you lucky or very unfortunate. I tend to think the latter.

[Primo]

I wasn't saying that you think the girl is the victim, I'm not saying it's for a higher purpose either. I'm saying I'd rather know, no matter how I found out. It's pretty safe to say that alot of people that get cheated on never find out, so yes I consider this guy to be fortunate to have the facts before he says "I do". What you differ on from OV and I is that we don't consider ourselves cheaters. They were single, we were single, it's up to them to take accountability for their own decisions if something is at stake.

Other than my fiancee fling, the only other time I "knew" a woman was with someone else when we were going to get together was the time I mentioned in this thread. I told her I'd go out with her when she ended things with her boyfriend. You didn't say anything, but why do you think her initial reaction was 'thanks for making me breakup with my boyfriend' when I told her it wasn't working out? Do you think that's an uncommon response? Do most women want to make sure something is secure before they attempt to move on? Her response seemed to indicate that she would've been happier in the end if she had kept it a secret and see how it worked with me first, I have a feeling that's not so rare with women...

[IndiReloaded]

What you differ on from OV and I is that we don't consider ourselves cheaters. They were single, we were single, it's up to them to take accountability for their own decisions if something is at stake.

Again, you do not understand my point. I do not consider either you or OV cheaters either. But that is not the only issue here. I do consider you willing exploiters of someone else's weakness. People who do this are fundamentally selfish and lack integrity, IMO. When I see people as smart as you both, I expect better.

Since you don't like my gun analogy how about that of a drug pusher? Sure, you aren't making someone take the drugs you sell, its ultimately their choice and responsibility, but you certainly aren't suggesting a better path for them and you are happy to benefit from their weakness (in your case for sex, for the pusher its money).

Other than my fiancee fling, the only other time I "knew" a woman was with someone else when we were going to get together was the time I mentioned in this thread. I told her I'd go out with her when she ended things with her boyfriend. You didn't say anything, but why do you think her initial reaction was 'thanks for making me breakup with my boyfriend' when I told her it wasn't working out?

Okay, I will respond to this. First, I think you asking her to breakup before dating you is entirely reasonable. You put the responsibility squarely on her shoulders and she made her choice, for good or ill.

However, I am old enough to know that nothing ever happens in a vacuum. I would love to know just how you two got to the stage where she would even consider such a thing. I would bet my retirement fund you were engaged in an emotional affair by then. You were no doubt very charming and right in there emotionally, if not physically.

As for her followup comment, I couldn't tell from your post if she was sincerely grateful you motivated her to breakup or if she was expressing bitter regret she wasted her time with you. If the latter, then I guess its her karma: this monkey wasn't smart enough to realize she was leaping to an unstable branch. But, do not delude yourself you were doing a great public service to this man: you could have achieved the same end w/o actually having sex with such a weak person.

If these are the women you guys choose, frankly, your taste in women is terrible. But, like Onegin, you seem the sort that would realize your mistake too late and Tatiana would show you the door.

[IndiReloaded]

Here you go guys. Its a beautifully done segment & the music is just sublime. Do read the full poem sometime:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7aaBCekTXY"]YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.[/ame]

[Primo]

Since you don't like my gun analogy how about that of a drug pusher? Sure, you aren't making someone take the drugs you sell, its ultimately their choice and responsibility, but you certainly aren't suggesting a better path for them and you are happy to benefit from their weakness

Who's the pusher and who's being exploited? Aren't us men hardwired to spread our seed? Since it's about choice and responsibilty, maybe women should choose to be more careful with tempting their virtue when there's someone around that might take it. If not, their fiance's may not be the ones who end up owning that perfect little piece of pleasure anymore.

However, I am old enough to know that nothing ever happens in a vacuum. I would love to know just how you two got to the stage where she would even consider such a thing. I would bet my retirement fund you were engaged in an emotional affair by then. You were no doubt very charming and right in there emotionally, if not physically.

As for her followup comment, I couldn't tell from your post if she was sincerely grateful you motivated her to breakup or if she was expressing bitter regret she wasted her time with you. If the latter, then I guess its her karma: this monkey wasn't smart enough to realize she was leaping to an unstable branch. But, do not delude yourself you were doing a great public service to this man: you could have achieved the same end w/o actually having sex with such a weak person.

No, she was being sarcastic. She was back together with her ex in a week. You know Indi, every relationship that doesn't work out isn't an unstable branch. Maybe one of your ex's (if you've ever had one) friends would say that about you today? She did end up moving out of the state by herself and starting anew, so perhaps I helped her realize that her relationship wasn't worth much in the long run.

Don't be so frivolous with your hard earned savings, actually her brother hooked us up after she and I had casually met once. She stopped by work a couple of times to talk, then called and invited me to a function. I told her I'd love to go, but she had to breakup with her boyfriend (who I casually knew) first. She called me back in a 1/2 hour and said ok.

If these are the women you guys choose, frankly, your taste in women is terrible. But, like Onegin, you seem the sort that would realize your mistake too late and Tatiana would show you the door.

I'm sure OV would agree those aren't typical women or situations, just a couple of them. At least you didn't reference The Last Tango in Paris I guess. Personally I think The Sure Thing is a better watch, with a much better ending

[Only-virgins]

Apparently its okay to cheat with an engaged woman.

I'm not the one cheating. That is hard to grasp?

Sure, you can always say its her decision. But what about her children? Do they have a choice? Would you still say that its her/their problem? Or would you be a decent human being and say 'no' to something b/c you don't want to contribute to someone else's bad judgment and the fallout from it.

I'm not contributing. I believe you or someone on here once said that a relationship that has people in it that are willing to cheat already is on the path to the end.

Again, you do not understand my point. I do not consider either you or OV cheaters either. But that is not the only issue here. I do consider you willing exploiters of someone else's weakness. People who do this are fundamentally selfish and lack integrity, IMO. When I see people as smart as you both, I expect better.

I dis-agree. I have plenty of integrity. It is this couple that has to deal with the loss of theirs. I am a man with no obligations and promises to anyone. This is very consistent and I will stick to this argument the entire time Indi. It has nothing to do with me caring about their marriage. I couldn't care less if their marriage fails or not just like her maybe future husband wouldn't care about mine.

Since you don't like my gun analogy how about that of a drug pusher? Sure, you aren't making someone take the drugs you sell, its ultimately their choice and responsibility, but you certainly aren't suggesting a better path for them and you are happy to benefit from their weakness (in your case for sex, for the pusher its money).

I wouldn't mind selling drugs for a profit to fools who are to dumb to take it in the first place. They know the consequences thus I am not obligated to care any further. If it was legal of course, I wouldn't care to sell them now because I know my consequences of getting caught. I am not stupid like these weak people. If it was up to me I would tear down all rehab centers and spread the money to people who are smart and deserve it.

[IndiReloaded]

Okay guys, we will have to agree to disagree. I do understand your position but will say that karma is a bitch regards such thing. This type of behaviour will come back to bite you. Primo knows already, I suspect, but OV you are still young and can choose a different path.

Something else to think about FWIW to you. Its just an example to make you think, so don't over-interpret my ego in this:

If I was considering either of you as a long-term partner and learned you have conducted yourself in this way, that would be a deal-breaker for me. Not so much for what you have done (of course people make mistakes), but for your way of rationalizing it. People who conduct themselves with integrity expect a partner who does likewise. Not necessarily a perfect partner, but one who can convert their mistakes into wisdom.

In any case, water finds its own level. You are both single and there is a reason for it. Read Pushkin. Don't be Onegin.

[IndiReloaded]

I'm not the one cheating. That is hard to grasp?

I do not consider either you or OV cheaters either. But that is not the only issue here. I do consider you willing exploiters of someone else's weakness. People who do this are fundamentally selfish and lack integrity, IMO. When I see people as smart as you both, I expect better.

Did you understand this^?

[IndiReloaded]

I dis-agree. I have plenty of integrity.

I challenge this statement. OV, please explain in this particular context how YOU have acted with integrity.

What are the principles you have upheld in this particular context? Are you truly okay with a guy doing exactly the same thing to you? Do you think that sex and relationships are really a free-for-all, in the sense that if you can convince someone to leave their relationship to be with you, this is okay?

How do you expect to keep the type of woman who would NOT leave you for another man who pursues her? You don't hold yourself to the same standard.

[misombra]

i think guys do this kind of thing out of insecurity. they want make sure they have the ability to tempt a woman into treachery. or that they are somehow better than the other guy.

that's why girls do it. except i thinks it's far more taboo for a female to do this type of thing. when we do it's very apparent that we are trying to fulfil our ego and make ourselves believe that we are better and have more to offer than the other woman.

i don't think it's any different for males. it just shows a great lack of self respect.