When Did Cheating Become So Acceptable?

[Incognito]

I think we'll all going off on a tangent here. The bottom line is that cheating is wrong. If committment and monogamy isn't your thing then don't get married. Marriage = monogamy No one is forcing anyone to get married, so if you can't stay faithful to one person don't get married.......period.

[VincenzoG91]

I'm an atheist, but I have values and standards. I'm not an apathetic doormat who passively awaits abuse at the hands of the selfish and the cruel.

[Sonrisa]

what is marriage?

[Incognito]

You are basically sounding like those religious people who believe in certain rules to sort of protect their own little world. Same people who then go and do all kinds of shit that is by most considered immoral.

Don't make assumptions. I'll also point out that if someone claims to have high moral standards, but then does all kinds of immoral stuff that they really didn't have high moral standards. I'd rather not discuss anything regarding religion because that is a controversial topic no matter where you are or what time of day it is. Not to mention that this thread is not about religion. I think its also prudent to mention that not all religious people have high moral standards and not all people with high moral standards are religious. You seem to be trying to find a way to discount morality and justify immoral actions? I don't get it.

[Incognito]

I think everyone's points of view have been heard. No one can convince me that cheating is EVER justified. Is it possible for anyone? Yes. Is it something can CAN BE forgiven? Yes. Is it just a fact of life that is benign and should be expected? No, not ever. Everyone who wants to justify cheating and defend cheaters' actions go ahead. To each their own. Just know that that the end doesn't always justify the means (ie the resulting gratification doesn't justify the betrayal of a spouse). With that I will not be commenting in this thread any longer, nor watching it. To the cheaters: Have fun, more power to you, and hopefully you only wreck you own lives. To the faithful: There is no point in trying to convince anyone who only believes self made, self serving truths.

[vashti]

I wouldlike to revisit this thread when the youngsters have been married 20 or 30 years.

[Doc Durian]

what is marriage?

The act of lusting for, falling in love over, and making a commitment to share the same wet spot for the rest of your life together while growing gnarly grey hairs in odd places.

[vashti]

The act of lusting for, falling in love over, and making a commitment to share the same wet spot for the rest of your life together while growing gnarly grey hairs in odd places.

I am happy to give up the wet spot.... he can have it.

[IndiReloaded]

I'll ask this question with the utmost respect: Have you ever cheated?

No, never and neither has he (that I know of). But that doesn't mean I can't imagine situations where it might happen. I'm simply more pragmatic than some about such things, I guess. I'm not alone in this attitude, even here on this site.

Anyway, human nature is what it is. I stated early on in this thread that there is a large gap b/t an ideal and living up to such. Few people can actually manage it and I think its incredibly naive to assume everyone can. In fact, the only people I believe can comment with any wisdom on this subject would be one of two categories:

- someone who has cheated, regretted it and mended their ways
- someone who has *almost* cheated, prevented it, and has learned how to avoid it

Everyone else is speaking to an ideal, IMO. Until they have had their feet to the fire, its largely like someone telling me that childbirth is easy who has never experienced it.

As far as motive..... Cheating only happens because of ONE motive, selfish sexual gratification.

I disagree. Everything I've read about infidelity says that sexual gratification is the least of the reasons why spouses cheat.

Your statement about being "vanilla" on the subject seems to suggest that you condone cheating. Cheating is as much of a black and white, cut and dry issue as rape, or murder.

No, I just have a wider view of the world than binary. I happen to believe that, for most cases of cheating (at least martial infidelity), that those situations do not arise in a vacuum where one person is evil and the other innocent. And I certainly do not put cheating in the same category as rape or murder. I think I just enjoy a slightly broader mindset than some and am prepared to tolerate certain human weaknesses particularly when balanced out by other strengths. You may disagree if you like.

[Doc Durian]

-Someone who has been the willing partner to someone who has cheated on their supposed one and only

That's the third one, Indi.

I live with that till this day.

[IndiReloaded]

I think Lite is a poster here who said he once cheated and never would again. Wish he would weigh in on this thread.

Anyway, people are becoming entrenched in their belief system and getting needlessly upset over an internet discussion. This always happens when people's ideals are threatened by practical reality. There's a perception that my attitude promotes cheating which will lead to more marriage breakups, etc. and that is just wrong.

It is MY belief that if people had a more realistic attitude towards longterm commitments, like marriage and child-rearing, that there would be fewer divorces and more healthy, two-parent households. Too few young people have direct examples of what to reasonably expect. It also is my belief (tho I only have indirect evidence from my older generation married relatives) that 'in the old days' there were fewer divorces b/c women were counseled by their older, more experienced female relatives to turn a blind eye to their husband's occasional 'indiscretions'. As has already been posted, I don't think infidelity frequency, or its reasons, has changed much over the generations. Is it wrong? Sure, its dishonest. Is it evil, right up there with rape and murder? Of course not. For most, I would guess its a mistake made in the heat of the moment or out of some desperate pain they never repeat again. Repeating cheaters and liars I put in a different category, I posted this already before also.

I do think the media is causing a needless shitstorm on this subject. Readily airing out people's dirty laundry and holding them up to an unattainable standard actually cheapens the utility of feelings like 'shame and guilt' in keeping this kind of behaviour to a minimum. Eventually, people are just going to go: 'shrug, its an impossible standard to meet--noone else can, why should I?'.

So, for all you starry-eyed dreamers out there who really want fidelity to have meaning in your relationships, here is my advice, FWIW: instead of eagerly boo-hissing the Clintons and Tiger Woods' of the world--find examples of people who have managed it and try to actually understand the attitudes that lead to their success.

Take myself and Vash. We disagree with many of you and you take offense. Its laughable to me that you are dismissing the attitudes of the very people who have actually managed (so far) to achieve your ideal. A very few of you might actually be smart enough to consider it is our pragmatic attitudes that might actually be responsible for our 'success'. Keeping in mind, again, that 'success' in one area likely means a compromise in another.

But I am cynical. I think that people are addicted to dirt and drama, theirs and others. It makes them feel okay about their own failings. Its why cheaters and those cheated on repeat the same mistakes in relationships--they don't really want to improve, its too much damned work. I think most people are fundamentally lazy when it comes to their relationships, and other things. Should I despise them for it? Or should I just shrug and understand its pretty typical human behaviour?

Those of you who can't shrug it off with some tolerance: I hope you are all exceptional, perfect people who can find that exceptional, perfect mate. Good luck. That's pretty much all I have to offer on this subject.

[Mish]

I think there is also an amount of self knowledge and character judgment that comes with wanting fidelity. Just wanting to be with a partner who will never cheat on you is not enough. The person who wants that needs to know themselves sufficiently enough to realize what type of people to go for and what type of people to avoid, they should also be good at telling what people are like and will be in the future. There are some people out there who will never cheat because it goes against their principles, moral fiber and their entire nature. There are others who will most likely cheat in the future, but they will work great in partnership with other cheaters, there are some people out there who view cheating or polyamory as normal and the only way to be in a relationship, they couldn't do it any other way. So what shocks some, is a perfectly legitimate way to live for others. The trick is to know yourself sufficiently and realize which people are right for you and which will never work out.

[IndiReloaded]

Agreed, Mish. I would say that Tiger Wood's partner went into her marriage with 'eyes wide shut', so to speak. I think Hillary Clinton, on the other hand, knew exactly what she was getting in marrying Bill. They ARE still married, afterall. I think the same thing will happen to Tiger Woods partner, in fact. She will only divorce him if it looks like his financial & career prospects are tanking, but that doesn't look to be the case.

I also wonder if things wouldn't have been a LOT more straightforward for both those marriages if the media left them the hell alone to sort out. Poor kids.

[Mish]

Agreed, Mish. I would say that Tiger Wood's partner went into her marriage with 'eyes wide shut', so to speak. I think Hillary Clinton, on the other hand, knew exactly what she was getting in marrying Bill.

I think celebrities and people with high power are at higher risk than others because of the nature of their field and the status that comes with their position. I suspect most people regardless of their moral leanings would probably struggle with the concept of fidelity when put into a situation of a lot of choice, when it's easy to get what people want a certain level of rigid discipline is needed to hold back and not everyone has got what it takes to do that, or even wants to.

Still it takes a certain kind of personality that would resist even under those circumstances, think of Alice Cooper and Christopher Walken. What separates their wives from Elin and Hilary? They had intrinsic knowledge of how to spot the right personality.

[sienn]

my personal values have always been to find someone i can love deeply, get married and grow old together. however meeting my ex-boyfriend exposed me to the ugly world of infidelity. his personal life and past relationships are messed up. if i were to marry him, i think i WILL have extra-marital affairs. not because i have loose values, but because his cheating makes me disrespect him and the marriage with him.