Human Trash

[IndiReloaded]

Everyone has their stance, and I respectfully disagree with you. There are some children who respond exceptionally well to nonphysical discipline, but for the vast majority physical is the way to go. When pain is associated with an action it discourages it. I'm in no way trying to give credit to those who abuse their children in the name of discipline though. A slap, a spanking, or pluck is usually sufficient. People who use sticks, extension cord, fists and other such objects should lose the right to raise their kids.

Do you have kids, Cog? I can't remember....

EDIT - nevermind, I see you do.

I too agree with Vash. And I disagree with you that "the vast majority" require physical punishment. I suspect the reason you think this is b/c its how you were raised and you've never seen a viable alternative in practice.

We have never laid a hand on our son. Nor my parents me or my husband him. That's different from not being disciplined, tho. My son has been disciplined all his life, in an age-appropriate manner. He learned early there are consequences to his behaviour. You discuss pain association, but there are plenty of other associations that can be made, tho most parents are too lazy, or too ignorant, to implement them.

If you have kids, I have an excellent resource for you:

[url=http://www.omnipotentchild.com/omnipotentchild.html]Palmer Press- The Omnipotent Child[/url]

You can order it from Amazon and I would strongly encourage anyone planning to raise children to do so. IMO, anyone who won't at least investigate the possibility of a better alternative to physical punishment has no business raising children. There is no job more demanding of someone's intelligent resources and commitment.

And yes, I would take away most ppls "right" to bear children in a heartbeat. People have to study harder to drive a car than raise kids. That's severely wrong. Prospective parents would have to complete a course and sign a contract guaranteeing certain rights to their child. Including sufficient money to ensure the health and well-being of that child, preferably in the form of some kind of trust. Then they could have their contraceptive implant removed and have a child. A second child could be permitted if the first child is deemed to be thriving in the environment.

[IndiReloaded]

Its been a while since I gave her an actual spanking, but last time it was for yelling at her mother. I explained why she was getting a spanking, how to avoid it in the future, and spanked her bare bottom with the belt (one or two strikes).

You could have gotten the exact same outcome by simply removing a privilege for a defined period.

Studies have shown that parents who hit their children do so b/c they are getting out their *own* frustration, or are reliving some distress recording from their own childhood. You'd better watch out in future, b/c she will remember you hitting her this way. You could start by apologizing for hitting her, and saying it was because you were ignorant of knowing a better way.

[vashti]

Oh my god, ingognito! You hit a child with a belt???!?!?!?!?!? For something as trivial as yelling at her mother? And one that doesn't even belong to you?

That ruined my morning.

I don't honestly understand why her mother allowed you to do this. Is she really such a wimp she needs to be protected from yelling? If I were that child, I would never forgive my mother for allowing you to behave this way. Also, if you can't think of a more sophisticated way of handling children, you are going to be in a lot of trouble when she is a teenager.

[Incognito]

We discipline children to TEACH them. I suppose there are a lot of people out there that can think of no better way to teach than to inflict violence. Unfortunately, that sort of "teaching" is only good up to a certain age, and then the kids rebel (understandably). Spanking only works for the most undeveloped minds. After that, it just breeds resentment.

>> There is no sense in demonizing something that woks when inplimented correctly because you don't agree with it. I'd say that to anyone who categorizes nonexcessive physical discipline as "inflicting violence"

>> This is true. That is why since my daughter has already been primarily disciplined in a physical manner while young that it is not needed as much now. When disciplining a child you are shaping a person. Just like when shaping a wooden carving you have to start with taking an ax to a piece of wood to remove the toughest materal (physical discipline to discourage bad habits/behaviors for children). After that you move on to finer instruments that aren't as rugged as the ax so that you can further shape and refine without damaging the wood. Much the same way that physical disciple should be moved away from as a child gets older and you use other forms of discipline (or simply reasoning with them if old enough) to further shape the person they will become.

>> Again I agree with you, but all children develop at different rates. Some may not reach the point of being able to be disciplined primarily with nonphysical methods until they are older than others. I absolutely agree that if your child has reached the mental level to learn and listen after only being reprimanded or reasoned with that physical discipline should only be used in rare circumstances.

[IndiReloaded]

Please. Have you actually tried anything other than physical punishment?

As for the method producing a desired outcome--its like saying that a bullet to someone's head will cure their brain cancer. Of course it will, but what else do you lose in the process?

I just lost any respect I had for you as a poster today, Cog. Sorry, but unless you can tell me you are a psychologist and your daughter has a severe mental handicap that you can only discipline her the same way you would an animal, I think you are just extremely mentally lazy, ignorant, or perhaps both. You would be exactly the kind of person who needs training before having children. You could be spending the time posting here reading that book I suggest. I hope for your daughters (or grandkids) sakes you will.

Did you grow up poor, by chance? I would bet yes. Since poverty and lack of education tend to go together, I suspect you simply have no idea there are much better ways to raise your kids.

[Incognito]

You could have gotten the exact same outcome by simply removing a privilege for a defined period.

Studies have shown that parents who hit their children do so b/c they are getting out their *own* frustration, or are reliving some distress recording from their own childhood. You'd better watch out in future, b/c she will remember you hitting her this way. You could start by apologizing for hitting her, and saying it was because you were ignorant of knowing a better way.

I'm sure there are many people who just haul off and hit children and don't explain why or how it can be avoided. I make a point to NOT do that, nor do I administer physical discipline in an angry manner. Also I'd only apologize for doing something WRONG. Explaining your seeming ignorance to a child after disciplining them for something they did wrong degrades your position in the parent/child arrangement.

Oh my god, ingognito! You hit a child with a belt???!?!?!?!?!? For something as trivial as yelling at her mother? And one that doesn't even belong to you?

That ruined my morning.

I don't honestly understand why her mother allowed you to do this. Is she really such a wimp she needs to be protected from yelling? If I were that child, I would never forgive my mother for allowing you to behave this way. Also, if you can't think of a more sophisticated way of handling children, you are going to be in a lot of trouble when she is a teenager.

As a child yelling at an adult in anger is not acceptable and is disrespectful, it is absolutely NOT trivial. I suppose your kids are the ones who yell and curse at teachers because it is trivial/ I would hope not. I also find it unfortunate that you allowed a difference of lifestyle ruin your morning. I could see if I had admitted to severely beating a child or something else equally gruesome, but that isn't the case. Every day I am utterly UTTERLY disgusted by the people who let their children run amok because "they don't want to hit little Johnny and they don'y want to say anything because it might scar him emotionally". Thats bullshit, and my only consolation is that one day that kid will grow up to be a terrible person, put them in a home because they don't respect their parents, and eventually befall some horrific mishap because of them not having clearly defined boundaries and a sense of respect for others.

[IndiReloaded]

I would love for Qwerty to weigh in on this thread. SHE has a child with autism that causes uncontrolled behavioural outbursts. I bet she doesn't beat him with a belt, even when he punches her in the nose.

If she can manage to find alternatives, don't you think the rest of us fortunate enough to be blessed with less challenging children should be able to do it?

[Incognito]

Please. Have you actually tried anything other than physical punishment?

I take it that you cannot read. Go back and read my posts. I will not answer this again.

As for the method producing a desired outcome--its like saying that a bullet to someone's head will cure their brain cancer. Of course it will, but what else do you lose in the process?

Read the blue arrow above. I will not repeat myself again.

I just lost any respect I had for you as a poster today, Cog. Sorry, but unless you can tell me you are a psychologist and your daughter has a severe mental handicap that you can only discipline her the same way you would an animal, I think you are just extremely mentally lazy, ignorant, or perhaps both. You would be exactly the kind of person who needs training before having children. You could be spending the time posting here reading that book I suggest. I hope for your daughters (or grandkids) sakes you will.

Did you grow up poor, by chance? I would bet yes. Since poverty and lack of education tend to go together, I suspect you simply have no idea there are much better ways to raise your kids.

I wish I could say that I am deeply hurt by that (and I'll bet that you do too), but I'm not. In fact, you saying disrespectful things to me for having a difference of opinion, which I felt that I explained very well, points to you having some sort of mental problem that forces you to attack others when you cannot come up with a rebuttle using reason and experience as I did. I am trying to take the high ground here and not let this turn into a simply cursing and shouting match over simple differences of opinion. Perhaps you should be an adult and do the same.

[IndiReloaded]

I'm sure there are many people who just haul off and hit children and don't explain why or how it can be avoided. I make a point to NOT do that, nor do I administer physical discipline in an angry manner. Also I'd only apologize for doing something WRONG. Explaining your seeming ignorance to a child after disciplining them for something they did wrong degrades your position in the parent/child arrangement.



As a child yelling at an adult in anger is not acceptable and is disrespectful, it is absolutely NOT trivial. I suppose you kids are the ones who yell and curse at teachers because it is trivial/ I would hope not. I also find it unfortunate that you allowed a difference of lifestyle ruin your morning. I could see if I had admitted to severely beating a child or something else equally gruesome, but that isn't the case. Every day I am utterly UTTERLY disgusted by the people who let their children run amok because "they don't want to hit little Johnny and they don'y want to say anything because it might scar him emotionally". Thats bullshit, and my only consolation is that one day that kid will grow up to be a terrible person, put them in a home because they don't respect their parents, and eventually befall some horrific mishap because of them not having clearly defined boundaries and a sense of respect for others.

You are confusing the behaviour of the child with the solution. Noone here is saying that the behaviour you describe is okay.

My son, and I suspect Vash's kids, have never been disrespectful to adults this way and they learned to control themselves without being beaten. Since, clearly, that means there are alternatives out there to beatings, all I can conclude is that you must enjoy it, or the power you feel it gives you.

Tell me, Cog, how does beating your child with a belt demonstrate ANY self-control on YOUR part?

Read that book, educate yourself if you truly care. Otherwise, go ahead and condemn your child to the same upbringing I suspect you enjoyed. In no way should you actually try to elevate her thinking to something beyond what you were able to achieve.

Good luck.

[vashti]

My kids are both very well-behaved. My son ranked number 7 in his high school class academically, and had every one of his teachers write letters of recommendation for him for his university applications. He does tons of volunteer work, coaches basketball for the special olympics kids, and attends the number one ranked public university in the world. I'd say he turned out just fine without being spanked.

My daughter is a bit more feisty, but she does even more volunteer work than my son does (she is very interested in social action), is not involved in sex or drugs, and is the most compassionate person I know. I spanked her once or twice when she was very little, before I figured out how to be more clever.

I am much closer to both my children than average.

I actually don't know why I should feel the need to justify my statements to someone who uses a belt for discipline. That is genuinely horrendous. In fact, if I had witnessed this incident, I would have been legally (not to mention morally) obligated to report you to the authorities.

[Incognito]

I would love for Qwerty to weigh in on this thread. SHE has a child with autism that causes uncontrolled behavioural outbursts. I bet she doesn't beat him with a belt, even when he punches her in the nose.

If she can manage to find alternatives, don't you think the rest of us fortunate enough to be blessed with less challenging children should be able to do it?

Obviously that situation is totally different. A child with a severe autism will not respond to many things the way other children do, discipline being one of them. Physical discipline in that case would be ineffectual and abusive (since it would serve no purpose, being that the child would likely not learn from it).

[IndiReloaded]

I wish I could say that I am deeply hurt by that (and I'll bet that you do too), but I'm not. In fact, you saying disrespectful things to me for having a difference of opinion, which I felt that I explained very well, points to you having some sort of mental problem that forces you to attack others when you cannot come up with a rebuttle using reason and experience as I did. I am trying to take the high ground here and not let this turn into a simply cursing and shouting match over simple differences of opinion. Perhaps you should be an adult and do the same.

There is no high ground for someone who beats their child with a belt. This isn't a simple difference of opinion. Accusing me of having a mental illness when YOU are the one beating your child is laughable.

Use all your vaunted "reason and experience" to come up with a better solution to hitting your child. My ability to do so isn't in question.

[IndiReloaded]

Obviously that situation is totally different. A child with a severe autism will not respond to many things the way other children do, discipline being one of them. Physical discipline in that case would be ineffectual and abusive (since it would serve no purpose, being that the child would likely not learn from it).

You are just full of excuses, aren't you? But your logic sucks.

At what point do you decide that physical discipline ISN'T ineffectual and abusive?

Would you care to explain why your daughter needs beating and my kids, or Vash's, don't? Are we just better parents, or smarter than you? That could be the answer, I suppose.

Given that children learn their behaviour from their parents, that would put the source of the problem squarely..... Where again?

Think about it.

[Incognito]

You are confusing the behaviour of the child with the solution. Noone here is saying that the behaviour you describe is okay.

My son, and I suspect Vash's kids, have never been disrespectful to adults this way and they learned to control themselves without being beaten. Since, clearly, that means there are alternatives out there to beatings, all I can conclude is that you must enjoy it, or the power you feel it gives you.
Tell me, Cog, how does beating your child with a belt demonstrate ANY self-control on YOUR part?

Read that book, educate yourself if you truly care. Otherwise, go ahead and condemn your child to the same upbringing I suspect you enjoyed. In no way should you actually try to elevate her thinking to something beyond what you were able to achieve.

Good luck.

>>You're making assumptions, don't do that. I take it that you think that giving physical discipline brings me some sort of pleasure? It doesn't. I explain why its is about to happen, do it once or twice, and explain how it can be avoided.
>>It demonstrates self control when I tell her numerous times what the consequences of her actions might be, and I follow through without getting angry about it, allowing it to be a simple cause and effect situation. I also only hit her once or twice depending on the offense.


To both of you: I already explained that I am getting away from physical punishment as a primary means of discipline and have been for some time. For either of you to somehow justify talking down to me and insinuating that I am/was poor or that my opinion doesn't matter because I believe that physical punishment is a viable and effective teaching tool you need to get down off of your high horses and realize that not everyone agrees with you, and that there are multiple ways to acheieve a goal (other than what you think is ideal).

[IndiReloaded]

This thread reminds me just how much people suck. Two-faced ppl who can pretend to be so morally upright and "adult" outside of the home, but have no problem beating their wives or kids and finding some lame excuse to justify it. "Its for their own good", they say, but are they asking the one being beaten if THEY think its good?