Human Trash

[dewilliams2]

Clearly this is possible. Vashti is fine. So am I. We're both products of homes where something WAY beyond spanking was going on. What do you think about the fact that this is the case and we've both decided to parent the non-spanking way and have achieved great success?

I don't have any problem with the way you have raised your children...as I told Indi a few days ago I believe there are two schools of thought and I employee both while only reserving spanking for the most severe of cases. Spanking does not equate to beating a child.

I think generally its the parents prerogative as to how they want to do it but as I keep saying so much goes into raising a child that generally a spanking will not be that big of a deal. I was spanked a total of about 7 times growing up and in hindsight I believe I deserved it.

I am sorry you guys had such rough times growing up but I truly hope you do not believe that because I believe in spanking it is the same as abusing a child.

I have raised Vanessa since she was 9 and I have spanked her twice but I make sure to give her as much attention and love as I possibly can. For example I make sure to tell her she is beautiful but I also make sure to push school and tell her how smart she is as well. I think so many people tell girls they are beautiful but never that they are smart so a lot of women grow up and think they can ride their looks but looks fail. Or even worse many people tell girls they are ugly (especially in the awkward teen years) and those girls grow up with low self-esteem and end up in abusive relationships because it is what they are used to.

Of course, but i think those same people would have turned out just fine without the spanking.

I don't disagree with that...I was just arguing that your initial point that it was full of crap to say that had some holes in it and was not accurate.

[IndiReloaded]

That's a dirty tactic, one I know too well. You're trying to offend him just as much as he offends you with his argument, the quickest and easiest way being to insult his wife.

Dirty is hitting your kid with a belt. Dirty is not protecting your child from the asshole hitting your child with a belt.

You seem to think I give a crap what someone like that thinks. I'm posting here to illustrate something. I actually achieved it. If you don't get it, shrug Fras. If this turd was my someone I knew IRL, I'd have had Children's Aid there already. I wouldn't bother arguing with him.

[IndiReloaded]

I didn't interrupt it that way at all...I took it as you were saying that we couldn't use that argument at all...you said that argument was full of crap which insinuates there are not instances where kids who are spanked turn out fine....regardless of what you followed up with you said that argument was not one we could use...thats all I have been arguing about.

So you agree that kids can be spanked and turn out just fine in some cases?

You have this awful argument tendency where you overextend someones point to put words in their mouth. Contrary to what you think, you are not good at arguing. You don't seem to understand peoples point.

I believe there are two schools of thought

You can believe what you want, but you keep using this phrase as if it means something. Who says there are 'two schools of thought'? Who do you think are the experts who decide these things? In fact, the experts haven't said this.

Its a false premise from the start, so everything that follows is just garbage. GIGO.

[IndiReloaded]

The argument "I was spanked by my parents and i turned out decent" is a load of crap. Ever thought that maybe you would be decent without being subject to physical violence?

There is enough violence in this world, why use it on the very children you are supposed to love and cherish and care for.

This post^ made me a lot less cynical today. Thanks Q.

I certainly don't want to be mean Qwerty, you know generally I agree with you and like you but in the same sense you yourself said yesterday that you know you make poor decisions...even though you were never spanked I would think it is not much of a stretch to claim that perhaps you have some issues that you need to look into and understand why you have certain self-destructive tendencies.

.Its hard to say when your problems really begin and at what point we begin making poor decisions.

I was making more of a point about you not always selecting the best men...the selection of those men may have happened when you were an adult but the criteria you use to select a man and the process you go through to select a man has is basis in your childhood, education, family life (including values), and general upbringing. I said I'm not trying to be mean qwerty...simply make a point.

Are you kidding me? Williams, I think you may not know what Qwerty has gone through. You are incredibly patronizing and you'd better go and look up some of her earlier threads if you don't want to look like a total ass. You are NOT a professional psychologist, so stop posting like you want to be one.

I do not believe that one has anything to do with another if handled int he proper manner....certainly beating your child is wrong but to spank a child, which I still maintain is different does not necessarily damage a person's overall well-being.

Belief is irrelevant. Driving your car head-on into a piling doesn't necessarily damage you either. But it might, so why would you? Particularly when there are perfectly viable alternatives. Better ones, in fact.

I personally believe that so much goes into raising a child this is but only one percentage of a factor in terms of how a person turns out. A parent can never put a hand on a child but at the same time there are many more ways to abuse and neglect a child....I could make the argument that not reading to your child is just as damaging to them as beating them...only in a different way.

This is a nonsense argument. So, there are many ways to neglect a child. You are saying that we have to choose b/t neglecting them or hitting them? Sorry, thats not a valid argument. See my point about about alternatives. How about the '3rd school of thought': we treat them with respect, like how we would want to be treated.

As I said a few pages back my dad did not hug me or tell me he loves me since I was very young and even though I know he does love me...I find it very difficult to get physically and emotionally close to somebody to this day.

Hey... okay let ME play psychologist now (it IS one of my degrees, btw): so you think that spanking was your dad's way of expressing affection? Well, yes, that would explain why you think its okay.

[dewilliams2]

You have this awful argument tendency where you overextend someones point to put words in their mouth. Contrary to what you think, you are not good at arguing. You don't seem to understand peoples point.
You can believe what you want, but you keep using this phrase as if it means something. Who says there are 'two schools of thought'? Who do you think are the experts who decide these things? In fact, the experts haven't said this.

Its a false premise from the start, so everything that follows is just garbage. GIGO.

Saying "I was spanked by my parents and i turned out decent is a load of crap." is pretty cut and dry...no matter how she meant it she is saying that that argument holds no value in this forum. Perhaps she did not mean it that way but is it not easy to read it that way? All writing is no longer the property of the writer once it is put out in the world. It is then open to the interruption of the reader and therefore open to scrutiny. Otherwise we would not have words such as interpretation associated with reading.

I am not saying it is impossible that I misunderstood what she was saying. I am not perfect so this is quite possible. However, I still do not understand what else could be understood from reading that statement. Perhaps you or qwerty could enlighten me because Qwerty already said that children who were spanked could turn out as mentally healthy productive members of society after we had our discussion. So if her statement that "I was spanked by my parents and i turned out decent is a load of crap" means something else then what is it? She claims that she was only speaking upon personal experience with her brothers but she was very broad with her claim and made it seem as though because her brothers were damaged in some way from their experience all children who are spanked will be...and that the argument to the contrary is in fact "a load of crap."

As for my personal debate style read some Socrates and tell me where I learned it....he did exactly the same thing and while it drove people nuts in Athens he didn't lose very much because he let people poke holes in their own theories with their own words....careful what you say....also once again with the personal attacks...I would say your debate style leaves something to be desired...so I'm not to concerned about your critique.

As for me repeating there are "two schools of thought" I never claimed this was substantiated in any other science. It is simply a saying to describe the two sides of the discussion we are having here...nothing more. I never once claimed I found this in a book...it is just a saying.

I could also say:
There are two dissenting opinions
There are two points of views
There are two theories in play
There are two ideas in conflict
...I could go on...you have this way of putting words in a person's mouth.

This post^ made me a lot less cynical today. Thanks Q.

Are you kidding me? Williams, I think you may not know what Qwerty has gone through. You are incredibly patronizing and you'd better go and look up some of her earlier threads if you don't want to look like a total ass. You are NOT a professional psychologist, so stop posting like you want to be one.

Belief is irrelevant. Driving your car head-on into a piling doesn't necessarily damage you either. But it might, so why would you? Particularly when there are perfectly viable alternatives. Better ones, in fact.

This is a nonsense argument. So, there are many ways to neglect a child. You are saying that we have to choose b/t neglecting them or hitting them? Sorry, thats not a valid argument. See my point about about alternatives. How about the '3rd school of thought': we treat them with respect, like how we would want to be treated.

Hey... okay let ME play psychologist now (it IS one of my degrees, btw): so you think that spanking was your dad's way of expressing affection? Well, yes, that would explain why you think its okay.

I never gave any mental health advice...I simply pointed out that she does not have the best judgment (which she herself has admitted in more than one post)...I didn't realize that took a degree in psychology....and I don't want to be a psychologist...I actually found those classes boring and while I don't have a degree in psychology when I was going to be a teacher I did have to go through the educational and developmental psychology classes...certainly doesn't make me an expert but it also doesn't make me the guy flipping hamburgers either. I have read the old posts and I am aware of what she has gone through...it is quite tragic and I am very sorry for her and even said I did not want to upset her. This was when we were breaking down the statement that "I was spanked by my parents and i turned out decent is a load of crap." I simply used her as an example because it was her statement I was arguing and trying to show that a person can grow up and have issues regardless of if they were spanked. I in no way meant to offend and qwerty said she was not offended. I like qwerty and from what little I know of her she is a good person, I believe life has many good things in line for her...I can't imagine that a person as nice as she is would continue to have struggles.

Now as for your statement about driving a car into a pillar and it being dangerous so why do it...read back if you have forgotten....I could also say that a child could choke on a ham sandwich so why risk feeding them a ham sandwich...yet at the same time a ham sandwich sounds delicious and I believe I will risk it about noon tomorrow...perhaps a banana with it.

Or we could pose the argument this way...do you think it is better to spank your child or drive your car into a pillar?...which is riskier?...I suppose it depends on the speed of the car and the severity of the spanking of course.

Risk is relative to many factors and while spanking can be risky, raising a child and obtaining an overall product is subject to many factors.

When I made the comparison of the two extremes in terms of is it better to spank a child but love/nurture it or not spank a child but neglect it I was once again attempting to breakdown the statement that qwerty made that "I was spanked by my parents and i turned out decent is a load of crap"...in this context can you not see where I was trying to point out that you could just as easily damage a child that was not spanked but neglected in other ways. I was in no way insinuating that you must make that choice...thats just ridiculous.

All of this leads back to that one sentence...amazing how so few words can inspire pages of writing isn't it?

As for my father, he never spanked me either...that was always mom. Dad never did any of the discipline even the grouding...he always just sat quietly and let mom take care of it. No I think my dad displayed his affection by working as a mechanic for the last 30 years and to this day has terrible arthritis in his hands just so he could provide a good life for me. Or when he showed up like two hours early to all of my shows and sporting events in high school so he could get a good seat to video tape me. I know my dad loves me...there is no question about that. He never tells my mom he loves her either but he has been married to her for I think 34 years..maybe its 33 I don't recall exactly. Its just my dad. His dad died when he was 10 and my grandmother was a very cold woman. She never hugged me until she was so mentally gone that she didn't know who anybody was anymore and I saw her every week since I was a baby until she passed when I was 17...its just the way they are so truly I could say its more hereditary than anything else....we are not huggers or overly romantic.

Oh and I love my mom to...she is amazing...I'm a total mama's boy...not in the bad way...like she doesn't still give me spit baths or anything but I'm not afraid to let her make me pancakes shaped like hearts when I spend the night over there...thats right hearts...I'm man enough to say it. I'm actually really close with both my parents. They were my parents when I was young so they could be my friends now and I do consider them my friends....and all this after I was spanked.

[SirWagginston]

Aside from the fact that it makes your kids poor critical thinkers, there's one other problem with beating your kids, as I see it.

It's that just like any other behavior, violence may be copied and internalized. Kids who get beat learn that violence is an appropriate way to solve conflicts. They come to believe that if someone else is doing something they find wrong, hitting that person is a good measure to take.

I've got a funny story to back this up. There was one time, when I was really little, that my dad actually did spank me. I think he mainly did it because he felt so much pressure from his family and other parents. I had been climbing overtop the structures on the playground (pretty impressive at that age), and other parents were telling me to stop. I refused. They went to my dad and said to control me, and he said he didn't see anything wrong. But then they said that their children were going to copy my behavior, and that he needed to make me stop for that reason. He found that argument to be somewhat valid, so he told me to stop, but when I asked him why, he didn't have a very convincing reason, because he didn't truly see my behavior as bad. Because of that I became indignant, and he didn't really know what to do.

So he spanked me. I was shocked, and I cried. But when I got over the shock and crying, what I really felt was anger. So I plotted. I waited until I felt comfortable coming out of my room, and then I met my dad in the bedroom. I forget what he was doing. He thought maybe I was coming to apologize, or to ask him some more questions, but then I surprised him. I punched him in the balls! My mom heard him shout, and came upstairs to see what was the matter, but she found the incident to be kind of hilarious. Then my dad said, "OK, let's talk..."

And he never spanked me again. Sometimes negative reinforcement goes both ways!

[IndiReloaded]

I am not saying it is impossible that I misunderstood what she was saying.

Plain speak. Try to use fewer double negatives, you sound like a politician.

As for my personal debate style read some Socrates and tell me where I learned it....he did exactly the same thing and while it drove people nuts in Athens he didn't lose very much because he let people poke holes in their own theories with their own words....careful what you say....also once again with the personal attacks...I would say your debate style leaves something to be desired...so I'm not to concerned about your critique.

You aren't close to Socrates and he ended up dead. Plato is a much better example. You sound as if this is some new learning theory for you. FWIW, I've taught university courses. Socratic method is overrated. Scientific method is superior. Call it a difference between our respective educations.

As for me repeating there are "two schools of thought" I never claimed this was substantiated in any other science. It is simply a saying to describe the two sides of the discussion we are having here...nothing more. I never once claimed I found this in a book...it is just a saying.

I could also say:
There are two dissenting opinions
There are two points of views
There are two theories in play
There are two ideas in conflict
...I could go on...you have this way of putting words in peoples mouth.

You could also say all that and its still wrong. There is no more proof for this than your first iteration. The one I bolded is particularly annoying. You need to first establish there are two theories, and you haven't done so. I'm being pedantic, but use of such language in an argument is an attempt to make your opinion sound more weighty than what is it. Maybe not intentionally, but that's how it comes across.

BTW, regarding actual theories, I already gave a reference about the negative effects of physically punishing children. I can provide more if asked.

I simply pointed out that she does not have the best judgment (which she herself has admitted in more than one post)...I didn't realize that took a degree in psychology....and I don't want to be a psychologist...I actually found those classes boring and while I don't have a degree in psychology when I was going to be a teacher I did have to go through the educational and developmental psychology classes...certainly doesn't make me an expert but it also doesn't make me the guy flipping hamburgers either. I have read the old posts and I am aware of what she has gone through...it is quite tragic and I am very sorry for her and even said I did not want to upset her. This was when we were breaking down the statement that "I was spanked by my parents and i turned out decent" is a load of crap." I simply used her as an example because it was her statement to show that a person can grow up and have issues regardless of if they were spanked. I in no way meant to offend and qwerty said she was not offended. I like qwerty and from what little I know of her she is a good person, I believe life has many good things in line for her...I can't imagine that a person as nice as she is would continue to have struggles

Good.

Now as for your statement about driving a car into a pillar and it being dangerous so why do it...read back if you have forgotten....I could also say that a child could choke on a ham sandwich so why risk feeding them a ham sandwich...yet at the same time a ham sandwich sounds delicious and I believe I will risk it about noon tomorrow...perhaps a banana with it.

You have risk:benefit ratios backwards. My example describes a negative event that might (unlikely) turn out okay. Same for hitting your child. Your example is exactly the opposite. Hitting your kids isn't like a delicious ham sandwich, its more like purposefully driving a car into a pillar. I think you are confusing yourself.

Or we could pose the argument this way...do you think it is better to spank your child or drive your car into a pillar?...which is riskier?...I suppose it depends on the speed of the car and the severity of the spanking of course.

Are those the only choices? Again, you seem to be confusing yourself. Wrong question = answers that are irrelevant.

I was trying to point out that you could just as easily damage a child that was not spanked but neglected in other ways. I was in no way insinuating that you must make that choice...thats just ridiculous.

No kidding. Extremely obvious point, so why mention it? Are you saying that spanking isn't "so bad" compared to other ways you could damage your child? This makes it okay?

As for my father, he never spanked me either...that was always mom. Dad never did any of the discipline even the grouding...he always just sat quietly and let mom take care of it.

Which parent again did you say was with you when you drove the car? Did you drive all the way home only to have your mother spank you for it?

You are a strange one, Williams. You twist around and drift off the main topic and think you are clever doing it.

Here's my take on what you have tried to say so far:

Spanking is an acceptable form of discipline for a child.
-- I disagree on the basis that even if you are lucky enough it turns out 'okay', it is unnecessary.

Belting a child is not acceptable.
-- I agree

Consistent discipline is what is important for teaching children proper behaviour
-- I agree with this as well.

I further state I can provide references both showing that spanking negatively affects children AND that there are other methods that are just as, or more effective, than spanking.

I challenge you to find peer-reviewed, validated studies by professionals that are as convincing for your 'school of thought'. Show me that your *opinion* is sound and based on reason and not just a consequence of some conditioning you were unfortunate enough to experience during your formative years. No opinions. Only data, please.

EDIT - no wonder, you aren't even finished undergrad. I wondered. Anyway, if you want to be a lawyer, you should learn to do research. This^ exercise will be good for you.

[IndiReloaded]

Aside from the fact that it makes your kids poor critical thinkers, there's one other problem with beating your kids, as I see it.

It's that just like any other behavior, violence may be copied and internalized. Kids who get beat learn that violence is an appropriate way to solve conflicts. They come to believe that if someone else is doing something they find wrong, hitting that person is a good measure to take.

I've got a funny story to back this up. There was one time, when I was really little, that my dad actually did spank me. I think he mainly did it because he felt so much pressure from his family and other parents. I had been climbing overtop the structures on the playground (pretty impressive at that age), and other parents were telling me to stop. I refused. They went to my dad and said to control me, and he said he didn't see anything wrong. But then they said that their children were going to copy my behavior, and that he needed to make me stop for that reason. He found that argument to be somewhat valid, so he told me to stop, but when I asked him why, he didn't have a very convincing reason, because he didn't truly see my behavior as bad. Because of that I became indignant, and he didn't really know what to do.

So he spanked me. I was shocked, and I cried. But when I got over the shock and crying, what I really felt was anger. So I plotted. I waited until I felt comfortable coming out of my room, and then I met my dad in the bedroom. I forget what he was doing. He thought maybe I was coming to apologize, or to ask him some more questions, but then I surprised him. I punched him in the balls! My mom heard him shout, and came upstairs to see what was the matter, but she found the incident to be kind of hilarious. Then my dad said, "OK, let's talk..."

And he never spanked me again. Sometimes negative reinforcement goes both ways!

Best post in the thread. Thanks, SirW.

[dewilliams2]

Plain speak. Try to use fewer double negatives, you sound like a politician.

You aren't close to Socrates and he ended up dead. Plato is a much better example. You sound as if this is some new learning theory for you. FWIW, I've taught university courses. Socratic method is overrated. Scientific method is superior. Call it a difference between our respective educations.

You could also say all that and its still wrong. There is no more proof for this than your first iteration. The one I bolded is particularly annoying. You need to first establish there are two theories, and you haven't done so. I'm being pedantic, but use of such language in an argument is an attempt to make your opinion sound more weighty than what is it. Maybe not intentionally, but that's how it comes across.

BTW, regarding actual theories, I already gave a reference about the negative effects of physically punishing children. I can provide more if asked.

Good.

You have risk:benefit ratios backwards. My example describes a negative event that might (unlikely) turn out okay. Same for hitting your child. Your example is exactly the opposite. Hitting your kids isn't like a delicious ham sandwich, its more like purposefully driving a car into a pillar. I think you are confusing yourself.

Are those the only choices? Again, you seem to be confusing yourself. Wrong question = answers that are irrelevant.

No kidding. Extremely obvious point, so why mention it? Are you saying that spanking isn't "so bad" compared to other ways you could damage your child? This makes it okay?

Which parent again did you say was with you when you drove the car? Did you drive all the way home only to have your mother spank you for it?

You are a strange one, Williams. You twist around and drift off the main topic and think you are clever doing it.

Here's my take on what you have tried to say so far:

Spanking is an acceptable form of discipline for a child.
-- I disagree on the basis that even if you are lucky enough it turns out 'okay', it is unnecessary.

Belting a child is not acceptable.
-- I agree

Consistent discipline is what is important for teaching children proper behaviour
-- I agree with this as well.

I further state I can provide references both showing that spanking negatively affects children AND that there are other methods that are just as, or more effective, than spanking.

I challenge you to find peer-reviewed, validated studies by professionals that are as convincing for your 'school of thought'. Show me that your *opinion* is sound and based on reason and not just a consequence of some conditioning you were unfortunate enough to experience during your formative years. No opinions. Only data, please.

EDIT - no wonder, you aren't even finished undergrad. I wondered. Anyway, if you want to be a lawyer, you should learn to do research. This^ exercise will be good for you.

I do have political ambitions...I certainly apologize if my language is not clear to you but this is actually how I genearlly speak....perhaps geographical differences are at play?

I love Plato as well...Although Socrates is my favorite...to bad he didn't write anything so I suppose you are right about Plato because Socrates was just as much Plato as anybody else....but the character of Socrates through Plato is what I was referring...and I like Socratic method better...as you said, difference educations/opinions. Of course I'm a social scientist...we tend to view the world differently than other sciences that look for answers with math....yuck.

As for my ham sandwich example...I do not find myself confused...are you? I was making a point that risk can be found everywhere but its not always there...I could also say that driving a car into a pillar is something you could walk away from unharmed but eating a ham sandwich could kill you...two extremes but probably neither will kill either of us...I have my money on cancer for me...very high in my family. My point is, just because something is potentially harmful does not mean that it is always harmful. A ham sandwich could be a benign object just as much as spanking a child does not always lead down a path of destruction in their mental health later in life....I realized the answers were irrelevant...I was just having some fun....you seem to miss my humor and take everything far to seriously.

And no I was not pointing out that damaging your children in another way is okay. I was simply pointing out that spanking or not spanking does not mean that your child will be damaged...you can damage your child and never spank them simply because you are poor at the other aspects of being a parent. Yet you could spank your child but be excellent at the other aspects...or you could spank your child and be horrible, or not spank your child and be a great parent. Do not try to view it as the only two options on the board but only points within a broad spectrum of multiple levels and combinations of those options.

I'm sorry if my speaking seems so erratic...it seems quite clear to me....but then as I said I don't think you understand where I mean humor and I think you have forgotten that I'm enjoying arguing...I start arguments with my gf all the time just to fight with her....I'm actually smiling right now....and yes I am clever...thank you.

Yes it was my dad I was with and yes it was my mom who spanked me. My parents never thought it was appropriate to discipline me in public because they felt it would humiliate me in front of others...which I agree with. There is no sense in taking care of a personal matter in public. I just always got whispered in my ear "we will talk about this when we get home"...and I knew I'd screwed up.

And my main points you have pretty much pulled out and are correct on. I don't mind that you disagree it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

I never made the claim that my beliefs were backed up by any scientific data...but I don't have to have scientific data to have an opinion now do I? My beliefs are mine to have....I can state them as I see fit and argue them as I see fit regardless of what others say or believe themselves.

I could point out that many people claim vaccinations cause autism but we still got ari vaccinated and will continue to because I believe the risk is better than the possibility of those other diseases....that is my belief to have.

I do think we look at things differently...your hard science and I'm liberal arts.

But truly I'll continue to argue as long as you would like...as I said, I'm quite enjoying it....plus I can't sleep...its 4 a.m. here...I'm something of an insomniac so it gives me something to do.

[Junket]

Aside from the fact that it makes your kids poor critical thinkers, there's one other problem with beating your kids, as I see it.

It's that just like any other behavior, violence may be copied and internalized. Kids who get beat learn that violence is an appropriate way to solve conflicts. They come to believe that if someone else is doing something they find wrong, hitting that person is a good measure to take.

I've got a funny story to back this up. There was one time, when I was really little, that my dad actually did spank me. I think he mainly did it because he felt so much pressure from his family and other parents. I had been climbing overtop the structures on the playground (pretty impressive at that age), and other parents were telling me to stop. I refused. They went to my dad and said to control me, and he said he didn't see anything wrong. But then they said that their children were going to copy my behavior, and that he needed to make me stop for that reason. He found that argument to be somewhat valid, so he told me to stop, but when I asked him why, he didn't have a very convincing reason, because he didn't truly see my behavior as bad. Because of that I became indignant, and he didn't really know what to do.

So he spanked me. I was shocked, and I cried. But when I got over the shock and crying, what I really felt was anger. So I plotted. I waited until I felt comfortable coming out of my room, and then I met my dad in the bedroom. I forget what he was doing. He thought maybe I was coming to apologize, or to ask him some more questions, but then I surprised him. I punched him in the balls! My mom heard him shout, and came upstairs to see what was the matter, but she found the incident to be kind of hilarious. Then my dad said, "OK, let's talk..."

And he never spanked me again. Sometimes negative reinforcement goes both ways!

I love that getting spanked is synonymous with beating.

As if getting a slap is going to cause some kind of life long trauma.

Third, what I went through as a kid was way worse than any slaps I received from my mother. In fact I've never held that against her.

You guys are putting way too much into getting a slap on the rump.

[SirWagginston]

Well it obviously did cause some kind of trauma if I punched him in the balls over it. In fact, I brought the event up with him occasionally until I was a teenager and started to understand and sympathize with his feelings of social pressure.

[qwertz]

I never gave any mental health advice...I simply pointed out that she does not have the best judgment (which she herself has admitted in more than one post).... I have read the old posts and I am aware of what she has gone through.

If you read my old posts(which you cant as i deleted the original thread i made a while ago) then you wouldnt be trying to suggest that my poor decision making when it comes to men is due to how i was raised by my parents.

I could point out that many people claim vaccinations cause autism but we still got ari vaccinated and will continue to because I believe the risk is better than the possibility of those other diseases....that is my belief to have.

.

If you are going to use such claims, maybe you should do a bit of research first. This theory really annoys me, it was the MMR jab(measles mumps and rubella) that was claimed by Dr wakefield, to be linked to autism. This theory has since been discredited as it was proven dr wakefield had a conflict of interest and had in fact, 'fixed' the results, he was charged with dishonesty and numerous charges of abuse of a developmentally challenged child'
It irritates me that people/parents still believe there is a link when in it has been proven untrue. That man caused so many children to die or become ill as a direct result of parents not vaccinating their children.

Sorry for the rant and i know its O/T but its a subject close to my heart.

[dewilliams2]

If you read my old posts(which you cant as i deleted the original thread i made a while ago) then you wouldnt be trying to suggest that my poor decision making when it comes to men is due to how i was raised by my parents.


If you are going to use such claims, maybe you should do a bit of research first. This theory really annoys me, it was the MMR jab(measles mumps and rubella) that was claimed by Dr wakefield, to be linked to autism. This theory has since been discredited as it was proven dr wakefield had a conflict of interest and had in fact, 'fixed' the results, he was charged with dishonesty and numerous charges of abuse of a developmentally challenged child'
It irritates me that people/parents still believe there is a link when in it has been proven untrue. That man caused so many children to die or become ill as a direct result of parents not vaccinating their children.

Sorry for the rant and i know its O/T but its a subject close to my heart.

You said enough in your posts, especially the one about you feel like your slipping for me to gather what has happened...I have been around here for a few months now and generally tried to give you supportive advice...I'm sorry qwerty. And yes I can suggest such things because decision making develops over a period of time. It is not something that all of a sudden appears....certainly it can be effected by traumatic events but generally speaking they claim you should seek somebody out who reminds you of your father. So I can make the claim that your choice in men is based upon your father which comes from your upbringing. I thought you said I had not offended you? I really did not mean to. We don't have to continue discussing this if you don't like...I wasn't trying to get you upset.

As for the autism linked with vaccinations. I never said I believed it....we got ari vaccinated. I said many people do. I was simply pointing out that science can be flawed. People also used to use Social Darwinism to claim that Africans, Asians, Native Americans (basically anybody not white) were inferior to white people through natural evolutionary progress. Generally the size of skulls was used as the argument and the size of skulls was generally exaggerated and completely fabricated in order to make the theory stick. Keep in mind this was less than 100 years ago. They claimed that white people hard larger brains basically. Obviously, I hope most now realize that this 'science' is bunk.

I am not afraid to question science. It needs to be questioned....thats how we realize we are wrong and discover new things.

[LailaK]

Are you kidding me? Williams, I think you may not know what Qwerty has gone through. You are incredibly patronizing and you'd better go and look up some of her earlier threads if you don't want to look like a total ass. You are NOT a professional psychologist, so stop posting like you want to be one.

Hahahahahahahaha! This made me laugh so hard. I find this totally rich, especially coming from someone who personally attacks everyone who disagrees with her on anything.


I was spanked by my parents once. I still love them more than anyone else in my life. They are awesome people and the fact that I once deserved a spanking and they gave it to me doesn't make them evil people.

[IndiReloaded]

I could point out that many people claim vaccinations cause autism but we still got ari vaccinated and will continue to because I believe the risk is better than the possibility of those other diseases....that is my belief to have.

I do think we look at things differently...your hard science and I'm liberal arts.

Belief-based decision making and a reliance on other people's ideas. This tells me all I need to know about you.

But truly I'll continue to argue as long as you would like...as I said, I'm quite enjoying it....plus I can't sleep...its 4 a.m. here...I'm something of an insomniac so it gives me something to do.

Since you can't sleep then address Giga's question, mine about who spanked you after you drove the car, and Sir Ws excellent post.

And why are you spanking a 9+ year old girl who isn't even yours? Even those who subscribe to spanking as a form of discipline don't usually do it at this age unless they have abusive tendencies. Its reserved for younger children who [they say] can't be reasoned with.