Always friend zoned and frustrated!

[evans]

I'm 21 male, intelligent, attractive in the physical department, nice but certainly no pushover. I'm not shy but introverted and doesn't talk a lot.

I don't know what's the problem here except that I've been rejected and friend zoned for 4 consecutive times with 4 different girls. I tend to establish a friendship first with said girl before professing any romantic interest but am always rejected with the "you're a really nice guy but it's better we remain friends" or "you'll find someone better. My texts are always promptly replied-almost instantly-, we went out and we have had text flirting. However, those dinner and movie dates just never went beyond to an official exclusive relationship. I'm pretty quiet when out on dates since I rarely adore talking.

Now I do not know where the F* does the problem lies. Every time there will be a guy who enters the picture shortly after I've been rejected. When I look at their boyfriend, I do not in any way pale in comparison to them. I realize I have grown extremely bitter, angry and misogynistic. It's awfully painful to see the one whom you are romantic interested in be in the arms of some other guys.
I end up paying for meet ups even after being rejected. Tell me how I can avoid being friend zoned! I'm not looking for solutions to win her over ( I do want to be with her but I'm too swallowed with anger) because I wouldn't sell or trade my spine away for a dating opportunity with some girl who rejected me. I have grown comfortable being angry with the opposite gender and wouldn't want to shift from this comfort zone as of yet.

Tell me how I can hook up with some girl easily to show them I can indeed find someone better than them as they had wished so. Look, I want help badly! Constructive inputs please!

[sadie_genie]

Maybe you shouldn't be friends with them first. Show interest right away and be aggressive about it because the beginning stages are opportunities for seduction. Once that initial phase fades away, it becomes harder to become lovers because the mystery goes away.

[Junket]

Being friends with a girl first is the first mistake.

Avoid being friends with women you have romantic feelings towards.

[MynameisJesus]

I used to be like you until I met smackie9, the Bible of relationships on this forum.
I am 24 and an untouched virgin. I work out daily and women rate me as a 9.5/10 on picture rating fora.

Quote: " Being friends is a choice "
And attraction is not a choice. Girls can find you a total dick and still be very attracted to you if you have amazing self esteem and social proof.
My guess is that you have been the nice guy who is always there and listens to their emotional bullshit like I used to do.

STOP BEING FRIENDLY/NICE. You have to
I'm not saying you have to be a total jerk, but once you are friend zoned it's very hard to get out. You have probably put yourself in that spot because you are afraid of taking chances.
If you want to hook up, be ballsy and take the risk that she might not be interested. The nice guy doesn't take this risk and keeps hiding in his comfort zone where nothing can go wrong. Then you get a "friendship" that is based on the fact that you are afraid of taking risks. So basically you lie to yourself and to her.

It is a transformation. I have started taking chances this week and it's working

[RammsteinGal]

Sounds like you friend-zone yourself. You said you become friends with these girls before you approach them romantically, so of course they're going to see you as a friend. Stop doing that. Also, you say you're no pushover. Then why are you paying for meet ups after the girl rejects you? I don't pay for my friend's dinner or movies unless its their birthday or some other special event, so stop doing that too.

[swekarma]

Its almost impossible for me to be attracted to a guy if we start off as just friends. No matter how hot or great he is.

[smackie9]

You HAVE to be out going and confident if you want to attract women. Grow some, make the changes and you will succeed. Ask them out, don't make friends.

[smackie9]

They are just girls for **** sakes. They have insecurities too just like anyone else. Stop putting them up on a pedestal....

[red_sparrow]

its really funny how we women always complain we're not emotionally supported by our cold, uncaring boyfriends, and as soon as someone does this they're 'friend zoned'

[Take2]

its really funny how we women always complain we're not emotionally supported by our cold, uncaring boyfriends, and as soon as someone does this they're 'friend zoned'

Speak for yourself. I have never "friend-zoned" a guy for being emotionally supportive or warm or caring. I actually don't believe in the friend zone. If I am friends with a guy and he's attractive and single, I would like to date him. If a guy is "stuck in the friend zone" with me it is not because he put himself there by some careless mistake, he is not physically or romntically attractive to me on some fundamental level. I think that is true of most women. It's just that if we like a guy as a friend, we don't want to insult him by telling him the real thing that makes us not interested. So the falacy of the friend zone persists. Odd-looking or socially awkward or clingy guys who are genuinely likable end up as friends with women they like romantically and think that some minor mis-step was all that stood between themselves and happily ever after with this person. When really, there was never a chance that woman was going to date that man.

[evans]

I used to be like you until I met smackie9, the Bible of relationships on this forum.
I am 24 and an untouched virgin. I work out daily and women rate me as a 9.5/10 on picture rating fora.

Quote: " Being friends is a choice "
And attraction is not a choice. Girls can find you a total dick and still be very attracted to you if you have amazing self esteem and social proof.
My guess is that you have been the nice guy who is always there and listens to their emotional bullshit like I used to do.

Define nice. I do sometimes listen to their emotional bullshit not because I feel under social pressure to do so but rather, I do it because it was energy expended which does not effect me. Personally, and true to that, I see no reason as to why I should withhold advises from her to whatever problems she might be ranting about on the pretext of being busy. Aforementioned, I'm introverted but I'm confident and outspoken if the situation requires me to take the rein but most of the time I like remaining in the social background. I don't like being in the spotlight.

STOP BEING FRIENDLY/NICE. You have to
I'm not saying you have to be a total jerk, but once you are friend zoned it's very hard to get out. You have probably put yourself in that spot because you are afraid of taking chances.
If you want to hook up, be ballsy and take the risk that she might not be interested. The nice guy doesn't take this risk and keeps hiding in his comfort zone where nothing can go wrong. Then you get a "friendship" that is based on the fact that you are afraid of taking risks. So basically you lie to yourself and to her.

It is a transformation. I have started taking chances this week and it's working

Taking chances has never been an issue if my mental modelling of the opportunity cost when confessing my romantic interest to her does not substantially work against my favor. That said, the process when it comes to pursuing girl-on my part-is a slow one. I enjoy taking my time.

[evans]

Sounds like you friend-zone yourself. You said you become friends with these girls before you approach them romantically, so of course they're going to see you as a friend. Stop doing that. Also, you say you're no pushover. Then why are you paying for meet ups after the girl rejects you? I don't pay for my friend's dinner or movies unless its their birthday or some other special event, so stop doing that too.

I'm not surprise I actually paid for her dinner actually. Well, the bill came and she did not pop up the question of paying for her fair share. There is always the option of requesting(or demanding) her to pay for her fair due but given that the service personnel was just beside our table, coupled with the fact that I had a romantic liking towards her, I allowed her to overstepped certain boundaries. I don't mind paying but would really appreciate if she would at least initiate paying for her share.

As to the best of my knowledge, the 'nonchalant' attitude in the context of dating with females applies only while pursuing them and should not be applied once one is in a relationship with them? It doesn't makes logical sense! Why would a women be drawn to a potential mate who acts or appear to be uninterested in them but the moment they are in an official relationship, being acted upon in such a manner similar to what attracted them before their exclusive relationship be counted upon as detrimental? WTF? An exemplification of the conflation between what girls say they want and what they are attracted to are entirely distinct. Take the latest girl who rejected me for instance: it isn't uncommon for me to see status of her 'ranting' about the lack of concern from her new boyfriend, and yet, in generality, when a guy does shower a potential date with concerns before the transition from date to exclusionary it is categorical turn-off.

[MynameisJesus]

Define nice. I do sometimes listen to their emotional bullshit not because I feel under social pressure to do so but rather, I do it because it was energy expended which does not effect me. Personally, and true to that, I see no reason as to why I should withhold advises from her to whatever problems she might be ranting about on the pretext of being busy. Aforementioned, I'm introverted but I'm confident and outspoken if the situation requires me to take the rein but most of the time I like remaining in the social background. I don't like being in the spotlight.

This video [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5B790k1vcI&feature=related[/url] is about nice guys, good guys and bad guys. There is a huge difference between being a nice guy and a good guy.

Basically being nice includes that you are very friendly so you make sure that people like you. Ask yourself.. Are there any people that don't like you? If there aren't, chances are you are a butkisser that's afraid of making an impression. The "take it or leave it" attitude is what turns women on and not the " I'll make an effort and change myself so everybody likes me" - attitude. If you are introverted, you are more likely to be this guy

You don't want to disagree with her too often because that might make her not like you. stuff like that. A bit insecure, afraid of asking her out directly because she might not be interested. A good guy is confident and asks her out like " We should hang out today. At what time do I pick you up?" and a nice guy says " I think you are goodlooking. Would you like to hang out with me? Maybe this week? "

Even though the good guy and the nice guy both have good intentions, the good guy makes an impression that lasts and the nice guy is forgotten in a moment because he never does anything ballsy that makes her think about you. Both good guys and bad guys get women but nice guys never do. So you don't have to be a total dick but you you have to work at making an impression.

" I don't like to be the center of attention... I am introverted but confident " --> Nice guy alert !! Even if you feel confident, you are not spreading a confident image this way. You are not marketing yourself. Do you ever lead a conversation or are you the one that's constantly agreeing? Since my change I am leading almost any conversation and it's amazing how females are listening and not interrupting, laughing about everything I say.

Another big tip:
Stop being friends with any girl you are physically attracted to. 90% of "best friends" are guys that want to be lovers but are afraid to say so because then they risk failure. And they stay in the comfortable friend zone because they think that is a good position. That is the worst position to be in and you'll get yourself in emotional trouble if you keep lieing to yourself this way. No matter how hot a guy is, it is hard for women to fall in love with someone they consider a friend. As a man I might be out of line for claiming that but I've seen dozens of women saying this on the forum

[evans]

Basically being nice includes that you are very friendly so you make sure that people like you. Ask yourself.. Are there any people that don't like you? If there aren't, chances are you are a butkisser that's afraid of making an impression. The "take it or leave it" attitude is what turns women on and not the " I'll make an effort and change myself so everybody likes me" - attitude. If you are introverted, you are more likely to be this guy.

There are a truckload of people who doesn't like me due to the simple fact of my personality being a highly individualistic one, and as well as being facts-oriented. I disregard social pleasantries and social idiosyncrasies. I do not like mingling around too much with people because I do not thrive in a manner which extrovert do. The "take it or leave it" attitude aforementioned in your post seems a little too vague. Perhaps you'd like to be more specific? All I'm aware is that I'm not very emotionally driven and very emotionally disconnected with humans. I have no qualms telling any girl whom I'm interested that she is in the wrong if she is in the wrong, in front of her enemy, if her arguments or conducts are irrational. I demand reasons, logic and rationality.

You don't want to disagree with her too often because that might make her not like you. stuff like that. A bit insecure, afraid of asking her out directly because she might not be interested. A good guy is confident and asks her out like " We should hang out today. At what time do I pick you up?" and a nice guy says " I think you are goodlooking. Would you like to hang out with me? Maybe this week? "

Even though the good guy and the nice guy both have good intentions, the good guy makes an impression that lasts and the nice guy is forgotten in a moment because he never does anything ballsy that makes her think about you. Both good guys and bad guys get women but nice guys never do. So you don't have to be a total dick but you you have to work at making an impression.


" I don't like to be the center of attention... I am introverted but confident " --> Nice guy alert !! Even if you feel confident, you are not spreading a confident image this way. You are not marketing yourself. Do you ever lead a conversation or are you the one that's constantly agreeing? Since my change I am leading almost any conversation and it's amazing how females are listening and not interrupting, laughing about everything I say.

But I don't like marketing myself. I like eating alone, shopping alone and doing everything alone and, most of the times not please when someone wants to intrude my personal space and time. She leads the conversation most of the time because she loves to go on talking about concrete issues such as like her families, girlfriends and work collegues which are boring. I like discussing philosophy, law, physics-abstract topics- but she doesn't possesses the mental capacity to keep on par with my cognitive mobility.

Another big tip:
Stop being friends with any girl you are physically attracted to. 90% of "best friends" are guys that want to be lovers but are afraid to say so because then they risk failure. And they stay in the comfortable friend zone because they think that is a good position. That is the worst position to be in and you'll get yourself in emotional trouble if you keep lieing to yourself this way. No matter how hot a guy is, it is hard for women to fall in love with someone they consider a friend. As a man I might be out of line for claiming that but I've seen dozens of women saying this on the forum

Which puts me in a personal quandary. Establishing a friendship with a potential mate ensures a certain probability that I would at least be able to extol a sound judgement on her character, temperament and personality. I wouldn't want to pursue a potential mate and thereafter realize that she is incompatible with my temperament.

[MerryH]

Tell me how I can hook up with some girl easily to show them I can indeed find someone better than them as they had wished so.

Don't hook up with anyone just to prove something to the girls you've been rejected by, wtf. It's very douchey, and I guarantee your "exes" won't react as you want them to. They didn't want you, why would they care that someone else has you? They might be bummed that you're not going to be around as much to buy them dinners anymore, but that's about it.

I'll tell you my impression of you and why you're not getting girls interested in you. You're not fun. No offense, but it's in the way you write, and how you write about yourself:

I disregard social pleasantries and social idiosyncrasies.

All I'm aware is that I'm not very emotionally driven and very emotionally disconnected with humans. I have no qualms telling any girl whom I'm interested that she is in the wrong if she is in the wrong, in front of her enemy, if her arguments or conducts are irrational. I demand reasons, logic and rationality.

Sheeeesh. Spending time with you is probably very tedious and dull. Honestly, you sound insufferable. It's okay to be an introvert, but you still should adhere to social norms and be enjoyable to others. You say that a lot of people don't like you, yet you question "where the F* does the problem lie." I think you need to demand logic from yourself as well. It's you. The problem is you.