Two Girls, One Problem

[Allegedly Dave]

OP, you have just proven that you are the scum of the Earth.

And name-calling makes YOU a great person? Come on now.

From your behavior, you don't deserve to be in a relationship

People don't "earn" relationships, they just happen. It's not like I rigged a carnival ring toss game, earned a bunch of tickets, and brought home Kaysie and Tara stuffed animals. Everyone involved in this situation is a consenting adult and everything is out in the open. If Kaysie is hurt or angry then she should leave me. If Tara is upset, she should stop being my friend. But this isn't about what they should do, I was looking for what I should do.

and it's best that if you continue acting like this that you be single for the rest of your life.

Again, this is not constructive. If you want to offer advice, that's one thing. But I didn't ask to be condemned.

You had an affair with a married woman and you are probably the reason that she ended up getting a divorce. Have you ever thought about that?

Her husband cheated on her with three different women. He then went into a drunken rage and smashed her face into a fridge, fracturing her jaw and cutting her temple. She drove to the hospital with blood pouring from her face. THAT is why she got divorced, you thoughtless douche. How dare you presume that I ruined her marriage!

You are clearly seeking women for sex and you are clearly getting satisfaction from this.

If sex was all I cared about then I would have ditched Kaysie a looooong time ago. I have several other "sources" of sex that I could call if I really wanted but instead I've stayed with Kaysie for nearly two years now. One slip-up, sure, which was prompted by KAYSIE demanding a break. Yeah, I'm a real deviant.

I hope karma bites you in the ass more than it already has.

It hasn't, actually. But I do hope that you get over whatever experience made you this bitter and cynical. You assume too much about me based off very limited information. A few paragraphs in a thread topic and you think you have me all figured out? You don't.

[SelflessnHumble]

If Tara was a real possibility then I suppose I would be treating Kaysie as second best... if the dynamics shift then I'll have to act. For now I feel like it's okay to continue seeing Kaysie because the odds of Tara coming around are so miniscule. My cards aren't good enough to go all-in on her. The other tricky part is that I really want to move to CA with a roommate in tow, so ditching Kaysie (who definitely wants to move) for the very-off-chance of dating Tara would very likely leave me with nothing in the end.

At the same time, playing it too safe could be a mistake.

Being with women...
Making decisions based on asinine reasoning isn't the way to be Dave.
Choosing women and a situation isn't a strategic card game where you pick the best scenario based on superficial particulars.

You unfortunately have so much to learn and it is sad that both of these women are just
more collateral damage that you have incurred as a result of your shallow and selfish tendencies.

[Allegedly Dave]

You unfortunately have so much to learn and it is sad that both of these women are just more collateral damage that you have incurred as a result of your shallow and selfish tendencies.

For the record, both Kaysie AND Tara pursued me and both are fully aware of the situation. They can end the relationship/friendship anytime. Nobody is being held hostage or manipulated. My mistake was not breaking things off with Tara promptly when Kaysie and I got back together, but I did actively work to wrap up that relationship and successfully ended it. If I had started to see Tara, or any other girl for that matter, while I was still seeing Kaysie then I'd openly call myself quite a few nasty words. But I didn't.

[SelflessnHumble]

For the record, both Kaysie AND Tara pursued me and both are fully aware of the situation. They can end the relationship/friendship anytime. Nobody is being held hostage or manipulated. My mistake was not breaking things off with Tara promptly when Kaysie and I got back together, but I did actively work to wrap up that relationship and successfully ended it. If I had started to see Tara, or any other girl for that matter, while I was still seeing Kaysie then I'd openly call myself quite a few nasty words. But I didn't.

For the record: It does not matter whether or not you were pursued by both women while they were fully aware of the situation: IT is irrelevant. Why?
Because if you are such a socially awkward man (which you don't appear to be) Then it stands to reason YOU would know it wasn't right to pursue them back!

-See, Kaysie was unhappily married, right? YOU chose to contribute to her cheating: which ultimately enabled her to separate from her committed marriage (ordained by God) as husband and wife...
-This means not only does she not respect the sanctity of marriage, but it also means that YOU equally failed to GAS in exchange for your own selfish reasons and needs.
-To spell it out for you Dave: Being approached by an attractive (although unhappily married woman) Doesn't mean you were forced to reciprocate her initiative. But you did! -This is your fault.
-I get women approaching me all the time. Should I cheat on my girlfriend just because they approached me? According to your logic, I should. I mean why not? I could tell her;
"Hey, they approached me...I didn't put a gun to their head!" (It doesn't make it any less manipulative just because you attracted another previously committed woman)


-You contributed to being with a married woman.
-Then you continue the trend by, "oops" I forgot to tell my girlfriend that I was still seeing Tara, "yeah, my bad..." It's just an honest mistake right? Hey, it could happen to anybody! /sarcasm/

I don't resort to name calling to get my point across...
Being selfish isn't an insult. In your case it has substance.
Your actions were indeed selfish and the fact you don't seem to get "it" means
you are continuously missing the point here.

The fact you have just been made aware of all of these truths means
it is YOU that has to act, not them. Don't worry about their move.
Worry about yourself.

The right thing to do is to stand up for what you believe in.
Your GF shouldn't have to put up with a friendship which only changed based on circumstance...
Kaysie wants to be the only woman in your life-and even more so because this friend of yours was a recent lay.

[Allegedly Dave]

For the record: It does not matter whether or not you were pursued by both women while they were fully aware of the situation: IT is irrelevant. Why?
Because if you are such a socially awkward man (which you don't appear to be) Then it stands to reason YOU would know it wasn't right to pursue them back!

Haha I'm plenty socially awkward... not sure how can you can judge that based solely on my writing ability (?). I channel my awkwardness into humor, and as Marilyn Monroe famously said: "If you can make a woman laugh, you can make her do anything."

-See, Kaysie was unhappily married, right? YOU chose to contribute to her cheating: which ultimately enabled her to separate from her committed marriage (ordained by God) as husband and wife...

-This means not only does she not respect the sanctity of marriage, but it also means that YOU equally failed to GAS in exchange for your own selfish reasons and needs.

Everyone involved is not religious, so save the God crap.

-To spell it out for you Dave: Being approached by an attractive (although unhappily married woman) Doesn't mean you were forced to reciprocate her initiative. But you did! -This is your fault.

Yeah, no shit. I never said I was forced into anything, buddy, nor denied this.

-I get women approaching me all the time. Should I cheat on my girlfriend just because they approached me? According to your logic, I should. I mean why not? I could tell her; "Hey, they approached me...I didn't put a gun to their head!" (It doesn't make it any less manipulative just because you attracted another previously committed woman)

I never made a case for that kind of logic. If that's your impression then I'm afraid you're sorely mistaken. Tara approached me when I was on a break from Kaysie. Get it straight.

-You contributed to being with a married woman.

A broken marriage, yes. She was still legally married but any emotional or physical relationship between herself and her husband was dead. If you want to harp on the spiritual aspect of marriage, save your breath. Agnostics don't give a shit about the "union of two souls" crap.

-Then you continue the trend by, "oops" I forgot to tell my girlfriend that I was still seeing Tara, "yeah, my bad..." It's just an honest mistake right? Hey, it could happen to anybody! /sarcasm/

I've said multiple times that I should have been more forthcoming about it. I blatantly stated that I failed in that regard, so there's no need to be snide.

I don't resort to name calling to get my point across...
Being selfish isn't an insult. In your case it has substance.

If I wanted to be selfish then I would do everything in my power to **** both these girls and many more and to hell with any of their feelings. I started this thread because I want to resolve the situation as fairly as possible to all parties.

Your actions were indeed selfish and the fact you don't seem to get "it" means
you are continuously missing the point here.

You've missed many of my points or are just blatantly ignoring details in order to better bolster your own. (ex/ Ignoring that I was single when I started things with Tara.)

The fact you have just been made aware of all of these truths means
it is YOU that has to act, not them. Don't worry about their move.
Worry about yourself.

I'm not all that worried about me. But I do want to maintain some principles. I do not feel Kaysie has the right to dictate who I can or cannot be friends with.

The right thing to do is to stand up for what you believe in.
Your GF shouldn't have to put up with a friendship which only changed based on circumstance...
Kaysie wants to be the only woman in your life-and even more so because this friend of yours was a recent lay.

Again, you missed another important detail. Kaysie is NOT my girlfriend.

[Raze]

OP, you are being really dense and if you don't want to be name-called, then why did you even post this on a love forum? How did you expect me to react when you posted a thread saying that you cheated on someone? Shall I pet you and call you a good boy or say "dude, you are cool"? You made a dumb decision and you are going to be the victim of my ridiculing in hopes that you never make a stupid decision like this again. Yes, you behaved like the scum of the Earth.

[SelflessnHumble]

O.k Dave...You're right and I do apologize for not reading the entire thread.
So...I've taken the liberty to copy/paste everything you'd written so this way I don't miss any details...

Anyway, she got separated a couple months later and we've been unofficially together ever since (meaning we're not dating but we are exclusive). Earlier this year, Kaysie became fed up with us not being a legit couple and we took a break.

You say Kaysie is not your girlfriend. What is she? What does exclusive but not dating mean?

It sounds like a petty excuse to circumvent liability, accountability and responsibility to me.
You either exclusively date someone OR you're don't. <-----This begs for relationship problems.
If you disagree: Look at your situation for Proof. It's blatantly obvious: YOU lack the fortitude to have a commitment.
Why aren't you willing and able to be in a committed relationship?

Kaysie wants a commitment. You cannot give her what she wants so she chooses to settle for your ridiculous title scheme...
Sure, she can leave at any time, but what YOU fail to realize is that you don't truly love her nor care about her
the way she deserves to be loved and cared for. It's all but obvious you use sex as a mechanism
to consummate your frivolous nature in using a woman for her love, intimacy, affection and sexual gratification
because you are devoid of affirmation -evident in all of your posts. You're in it to hit it, not to win it, as they say.

A few weeks later Kaysie suddenly wanted to be involved again. I agreed but left out the fact that I'd met Tara during our time off and also kept Tara in the dark. As always tends to happen, both of them found out what was going on in the end.

The fact that Kaysie isn't nor never was your girlfriend tells me a lot about you Dave.
See, you both were on a break (it doesn't matter who initiated the break) Both of you met someone
but while she had a meaningless one night stand, you decided to have yet ANOTHER baseless
no strings attached sexual relationship with yet another woman...your reasoning: "hey she wanted a break."

On one end I get the fact that in a court of law: she did want a break but only because she couldn't put up
with your tired BS with your shell corporation scheme bypassing a resolute commitment from a man:
Something a woman covets more than anything and something you just aren't able to give her.

Your actions and choices lead you to a position where being held accountable is intentionally overlooked whenever it suits you.
It stands to reason that the reason why you always put it back on these women (namely Kaysie) is due to the fact
that you've created this joke of a fantasy world where doing everything a loving couple does=an exclusive F buddy.

Also worth clarifying is that I would end things with Kaysie first if Tara was interested enough in me

Ethics, morals: you've got none. But principles? You feel you've got...k.
You're basically a relationship-based sociopath Dave.

Let me just say this: Imagine Kaysie read this entire thread, how would she feel?
You're a coward based on your actions, rather inaction. You know what you have to do
but you think these two women are a card deck at a casino and you think you're the house.

You've intentionally carefully crafted this scenario via a matter of comfortability, convenience and laziness
and have undoubtedly used sex as a function of holding power over Kaysie.

If she really cares about me as much as she claims, she'll be open to some kind of compromise. So far though, she isn't. It's her or Tara in her eyes. On a practical level, I know I have a better shot at something long-term with Kaysie, but she's likely going to kill it.

(1) Kaysie wants a commitment. Her mind is already there. You KNOW this and use it to your advantage.
(2) Kaysie has every right to feel how she does. If you cannot handle this then you need to go and let her go.

She doesn't have to compromise, especially when I know what she doesn't:
The reason why you are friends with Tara is because you are secretly lying in wait like
a selfish, methodical opportunist hoping to pounce when the timing is right.
Good hearted people do not make decisions based on cold calculation.
They do what is right because they KNOW what is right.

Making relationship decisions shouldn't be based on practicality as if it were a business decision.

Um... how have I been a scumbag? Kaysie's the one that wanted to take a break so I had every right to see someone else during that time and I did. Tara and I had a pretty casual affair going on so there were no obligations with her. I had difficulty ending the physical aspect of my relationship with Tara, and granted I didn't do it quickly enough and things overlapped with Kaysie for a few weeks (about a month), but I did end it. I think there's a big difference between outright cheating and finding someone else during a break.

Ask yourself WHY Kaysie wanted a break Dave???? (You know why she did)

Regardless, you left one meaningless relationship to another. If this doesn't denote
being labeled a scumbag then you're very out of touch with what you are doing!

You don't get points for ending something AFTER you've cheated (because it IS called cheating) See, look:
Being with someone else while on a break with Kaysie=no ethical principles...check.
Being with the someone else WHILE getting back (to your laughable title of no title) with Kaysie= no moral principles...check.
Continuously depriving Kaysie of a committed relationship due to your own insecurities=Selfish Coward.
Using an excuse such as "having difficulty" ending the physical aspect with Tara=Outright Cheating.
Knowingly (no titling/having sex) with a women YOU KNOW wants a commitment while you play Helen Keller=Scumbag.

The truth is Dave You don't deserve Kaysie in your life.
You think you are somehow better than a playing lying cheat simply because you are consistently in Kaysie's life? Nein.

I did deny it, but only because I didn't feel it was any of her business since a) we were on a break and most importantly because b) she initiated the break.

Make no mistake and save the excuses for your naive women in your life Dave...
You denied it because you cannot handle the responsibility aspect of facing the truth when you make choices.
You'd rather make up these erroneous asinine excuses such as
"Hey, she initiated the break so I don't have to tell her shit."

First, I never once referred to Kaysie as being my girlfriend. If she's not comfortable with a non-official relationship then she is free to walk away. No one is forcing anyone to do anything here.

Don't you see what this says about you? I mean WOW dude, really?

Yes, she should drop your self entitled BS and walk away, but you've manipulated her and play her habitually.
Why can't you man up and tell her to leave?
Why (if someone is to leave) does it have to be her?
Why does SHE have to be the one to go? Is it because you have absolutely ZERO conscience of what is right? (YES)

That's basically what I recently did though I phrased it a little different. "If you don't trust me then it's not healthy to be involved with me. Stop seeing me if this is going to be a problem." Two days later we had dinner followed by 3 rounds of New Year's sex. It's amazing how reverse psychology can work with some people.

This is YET another shining example of your failure to take initiative and responsibility...
Do you see how you put it back on her? This basically says:
"I'm content banging you (without a commitment) and using you emotionally (like a disposable diaper)
while I don't have to do jack shit to reciprocate, nor do I have to respect, honor and love you because I
happen to like using sex to hold you down...but hey, IF you don't trust me then YOU need to leave me.
Stop seeing me if my being an Asshole is going to be a problem...Yeah it makes perfect sense Dave.

Why did you call it reverse psychology?
Because you're a low-life leach/manipulator who preys upon women.

This is a tough one because Tara is kind of like that "Megan Fox" fantasy. A guy can love his gf/fiance/wife, but if Megan Fox threw herself at him... odds are good he'd jump on it On the other hand, Tara went for someone else after I had put myself out there, so the odds seem pretty low. I do care for Kaysie quite a bit, so if Tara remains nothing more than an occasional fantasy in my head I don't see any reason to ditch Kaysie.

If Tara was a real possibility then I suppose I would be treating Kaysie as second best... if the dynamics shift then I'll have to act. For now I feel like it's okay to continue seeing Kaysie because the odds of Tara coming around are so miniscule. My cards aren't good enough to go all-in on her. The other tricky part is that I really want to move to CA with a roommate in tow, so ditching Kaysie (who definitely wants to move) for the very-off-chance of dating Tara would very likely leave me with nothing in the end.

On some level I suppose that's valid since, if Tara gave the green-light, I'd be all over her... but Tara does have a boyfriend now. Tara and I already discussed our relationship and we agreed to just being friends months ago.
Is my position really so outrageous? And whether it is or it isn't, I could really use some advice on what steps to take next...

You're a sad and shallow little man horrendously devoid of any common decency.
You are scheming to achieve a desired result: This proves what many inferred.

The way your mind works and how you view both women just sounds like a cruel joke.
I truly hope you will realize how you come off and that what you've done and continue to think
isn't right at all. For someone like you: Being friends with women is your M.O. I mean heck Dave
you didn't even mention ONE male friend...why is that?

Let me guess: "I get along better with women than men, right?


To address your last post:
I don't judge. I base my posts on your own writing and via observation. Nothing is final for me.
Religion has NOTHING to do with it sans the FACT she made a commitment to another man to love honor cherish
and obey him until death...You contributed to their demise: You didn't GAS because you have no ethics/morals.

I know you weren't forced into it.
Your previous post to which I responded said otherwise.
In other words You can't say no even when someone is STILL married. -Poor Judgment-

You say you never made a case for that kind of logic...Why don't you reread what you had said.
You don't respect the sanctity of marriage because you're principles are a joke...No worries Dave.

Why then get married right? Just keep using women for sex because that is the way a real man
treats a woman. If agnostics don't GAS about marriage then they shouldn't get married.

I don't think you see the irony of this at all.

I started this thread because I want to resolve the situation as fairly as possible to all parties.

Consider the facts:
You don't want a commitment and have not had one with either woman...Check.
You don't consider it cheating because you've allowed "only" one month of overlap between the two girls...Check.
You feel marriage is "meh" or "whatever." Check.

Both you and Kaysie aren't good people.
You don't have a commitment which implies you can do whatever you want whenever.
If Kaysie doesn't understand it then she can walk away.
If Kaysie doesn't respect your friendship with a recent piece of ass: she can walk away.
If Kaysie doesn't respect the fact you harbor hidden feelings for Tara because you are a Coward? That's her problem.

At one point I used to be you...I've learned and I hope you learn as well.
What you do tells people your intentions and they truly suck donkey balls Dave.

I've got nothing personal against you at all.
You have the right to feel as you please.
Even if these little girls allow you to Do as you please just so they stay with you:

That's on them which means they too have issues. (meaning Kaysie)
So there it is Dave. I hope you do the right thing; sit Kaysie down and tell her you have
no title, sex based feelings for Tara. I'd say you owe it to her to be honest with her but I forgot...

You don't have a commitment which means you don't have to tell her shit because it's not her business...

[Allegedly Dave]

OP, you are being really dense and if you don't want to be name-called, then why did you even post this on a love forum?

Uh, maybe for advice? Constructive criticism? Anything that might actually be useful? Last I checked, calling someone names never resulted in anything positive.

How did you expect me to react when you posted a thread saying that you cheated on someone?

If only I had cheated. Too bad I didn't. And even if I had, the context and circumstances should matter. They wouldn't negate the fact that cheating is wrong, but it's better to explore then to condemn.

Shall I pet you and call you a good boy or say "dude, you are cool"?

No, but you shouldn't make up bullshit. I didn't cheat. I was not officially dating Kaysie at the time the relationship with Tara began and for the month that followed I still wasn't.

You made a dumb decision and you are going to be the victim of my ridiculing in hopes that you never make a stupid decision like this again.

I'll keep that in mind if you're ever honest and open enough to admit to a dumb decision you have made.

Yes, you behaved like the scum of the Earth.

I think such a title is better suited for figures like Hitler, sir. I had one relationship overlap another for 30 days. Shoot me.

[Allegedly Dave]

O.k Dave...You're right and I do apologize for not reading the entire thread.
So...I've taken the liberty to copy/paste everything you'd written so this way I don't miss any details...


You say Kaysie is not your girlfriend. What is she? What does exclusive but not dating mean?

It's kind of like an exclusive "friends with benefits" thing. You don't want to be with someone that's sleeping around, at the very least to avoid getting a disease.

Why aren't you willing and able to be in a committed relationship?

I am quite capable. I dated my ex for 3-years, fully committed, etc. With Kaysie I have reservations for a long-term relationship because of the baggage that would come with it (her son and her ex-husband's drama)

Kaysie wants a commitment. You cannot give her what she wants so she chooses to settle for your ridiculous title scheme...
Sure, she can leave at any time, but what YOU fail to realize is that you don't truly love her nor care about her
the way she deserves to be loved and cared for.

I never settled for the "title scheme". In fact, she's the one that invented it! "Dating but not dating" is how she coined it. I wanted to seriously date but she was opposed to it, saying she might get back with her husband. Then suddenly she wanted to date but obviously I was skeptical based on how she'd been talking before about it.

It's all but obvious you use sex as a mechanism
to consummate your frivolous nature in using a woman for her love, intimacy, affection and sexual gratification
because you are devoid of affirmation -evident in all of your posts. You're in it to hit it, not to win it, as they say.

Obvious to you, perhaps...

The fact that Kaysie isn't nor never was your girlfriend tells me a lot about you Dave.

Guys CAN have sex with a girl without making her a girlfriend and vice versa. This happens all the time. It's clear that you have a much more conservative (I'd argue uptight) view of things, but don't presume that the world shares this vision. You don't have to agree with it.

See, you both were on a break (it doesn't matter who initiated the break)

It absolutely matters! Are you retarded?? If I said to her that I wanted a break and the next day ****ed someone else then told her 2 days after "let's be involved again", you don't think that's kinda shitty? The person that initiates a break is more hurtful. I was the one rejected, and rather than sit around and mope about it I took action. Sorry I made use of the time SHE gave me. Jesus.

Both of you met someone
but while she had a meaningless one night stand, you decided to have yet ANOTHER baseless
no strings attached sexual relationship with yet another woman...your reasoning: "hey she wanted a break."

It wasn't baseless. I actually cared about Tara a great deal. She and I have more in common than anyone I know. We practically finish each others sentences! And she and I actually got to know each for a month as friends before entering the bedroom. Kaysie and I ****ed the first day we hung out together! THAT was meaningless (tho later evolved into something meaningful). And you don't think having a relationship while on a break is appropriate?? Then what the hell is the break even for?!

On one end I get the fact that in a court of law: she did want a break but only because she couldn't put up
with your tired BS with your shell corporation scheme bypassing a resolute commitment from a man:
Something a woman covets more than anything and something you just aren't able to give her.

Actually the break started because she was pissed that I told her husband what was going on. I took the honest step she had refused to make in order to have a legitimate relationship with her. It was my efforts to have a committed relationship that caused her to take a break! So yeah, I figured that break would likely be permanent so I started something with another person. Then Kaysie surprised me by wanting a relationship. Her manic indecisiveness is a big part of why I said "no" to being official with her. I was skeptical.

Your actions and choices lead you to a position where being held accountable is intentionally overlooked whenever it suits you.
It stands to reason that the reason why you always put it back on these women (namely Kaysie) is due to the fact
that you've created this joke of a fantasy world where doing everything a loving couple does=an exclusive F buddy.

Absolutely not. What I want is an exclusive long-term relationship with Kaysie or Tara. I care for them both, whether you believe it or not. It is humanly possible to feel strongly for two people, dick.

Ethics, morals: you've got none. But principles? You feel you've got...k.
You're basically a relationship-based sociopath Dave.

Okay. I think this conversation is over with. I have NO morals?? This thread is about a single relationship problem, not my entire goddamn life you prick.

You know what you have to do
but you think these two women are a card deck at a casino and you think you're the house.

No, I think these two women are individuals capable of making their own decisions.

You've intentionally carefully crafted this scenario via a matter of comfortability, convenience and laziness
and have undoubtedly used sex as a function of holding power over Kaysie.

Yeah, that's right. Kaysie is just a puppet and I have the strings. That's more insulting toward her than anything I've said or done.

(1) Kaysie wants a commitment. Her mind is already there. You KNOW this and use it to your advantage.

I do know this, but I do not take advantage of it.

(2) Kaysie has every right to feel how she does. If you cannot handle this then you need to go and let her go.

No one is stopping her.

The reason why you are friends with Tara is because you are secretly lying in wait like
a selfish, methodical opportunist hoping to pounce when the timing is right.
Good hearted people do not make decisions based on cold calculation.
They do what is right because they KNOW what is right.

I'm well aware that Tara is extremely unlikely to ever want to date me. What she IS is a great friend. That's it.

Making relationship decisions shouldn't be based on practicality as if it were a business decision.

Agreed. But having SOME practicality is wise, is it not?

Ask yourself WHY Kaysie wanted a break Dave???? (You know why she did)

I addressed it above. She thought I went over her head by telling her husband that she and I were involved.

Regardless, you left one meaningless relationship to another. If this doesn't denote
being labeled a scumbag then you're very out of touch with what you are doing!

Neither relationship was or is meaningless. You want to talk being cold and calculating? That's it, right there.

Being with someone else while on a break with Kaysie=no ethical principles...check.

The point of a break from a relationship is to remove yourself from it and live as though single. Maybe you've never had a break before?

Being with the someone else WHILE getting back (to your laughable title of no title) with Kaysie= no moral principles...check.

That was wrong, definitely. I've stated as much about 7 times now.

Continuously depriving Kaysie of a committed relationship due to your own insecurities=Selfish Coward.

Or maybe I'm just not ready for it? What the ****! So because Kaysie wants a committed relationship, and I presently do not, that means I'm insecure and a selfish coward?! You're out of your mind.

Using an excuse such as "having difficulty" ending the physical aspect with Tara=Outright Cheating.

It wasn't an excuse, it was a statement of fact. And I was not officially dating Kaysie so it was not cheating.

Knowingly (no titling/having sex) with a women YOU KNOW wants a commitment while you play Helen Keller=Scumbag.

For the billionth time, if I'm so awful to her then she should stop associating with me. If she were unhappy, I'd like to think she would leave.

The truth is Dave You don't deserve Kaysie in your life.

I think that's her call to make, don't you?

Yes, she should drop your self entitled BS and walk away, but you've manipulated her and play her habitually.
Why can't you man up and tell her to leave?

I've told her repeatedly that if she's unhappy or doesn't trust me then I did not want to see her anymore.

Why (if someone is to leave) does it have to be her?

Because I'm happy with the relationship. The person that isn't happy should be the one doing the leaving. That's obvious, isn't it?

Why did you call it reverse psychology?
Because you're a low-life leach/manipulator who preys upon women.

Are you kidding me??

For someone like you: Being friends with women is your M.O. I mean heck Dave
you didn't even mention ONE male friend...why is that?

Maybe because I'm sharing about my relationships and I'm not a homosexual? Why would my male friends come into play??

I don't judge.

Anyone reading this knows you are absolutely judging. Anyone care to tally up the insults? I've counted at least half a dozen.

In other words You can't say no even when someone is STILL married. -Poor Judgment-

I believe in relativity, not absolutes. Sleeping someone that is happily married to a nice guy? I would say no. Someone who is being abused by their alcoholic husband? I'd say yes. And I would do so again in a heartbeat.

Why then get married right? If agnostics don't GAS about marriage then they shouldn't get married. I don't think you see the irony of this at all.

There are many legal benefits to being married, dipshit. It also shows committment. But agnostics just don't believe it's a "union of two souls" or that a "God" is involved.

Consider the facts:

Bring it on.

You don't want a commitment and have not had one with either woman...Check.

I would very much like to date and be committed to Tara but she's ruled that out. It ain't happenin.
I feel similar in regards to Kaysie but, as I mentioned before, being committed to her also brings along a great deal of baggage that I'm hesitant to embrace. She also has demonstrated some characteristics I wouldn't want the mother of my children to have.

You don't consider it cheating because you've allowed "only" one month of overlap between the two girls...Check.

No, I don't consider it cheating because I was NOT IN A COMMITTED RELATIONSHIP TO BEGIN WITH. GET IT YET???

You feel marriage is "meh" or "whatever." Check.

Are you kidding me? I'm all for marriage, just not for myself until I'm in a place where I feel comfortable. Same as anyone else. I want to be in a place of stability before I devote myself so fully to another person. Sorry.

I hope you do the right thing; sit Kaysie down and tell her you have
no title, sex based feelings for Tara. I'd say you owe it to her to be honest with her but I forgot...

You don't have a commitment which means you don't have to tell her shit because it's not her business...

I have sat down with Kaysie and we mutually agreed that we didn't have a title, but reaffirmed our committment and are re-building any trust that was lost, and I even told her how much I did care for Tara but that nothing would develop with her.

I WAS honest and I DID/DO give a shit. Oops! I guess you were wrong again, asshole.

[Raze]

Guys CAN have sex with a girl without making her a girlfriend and vice versa. This happens all the time. It's clear that you have a much more conservative (I'd argue uptight) view of things, but don't presume that the world shares this vision. You don't have to agree with it.

Just because a lot of people do it, doesn't make it right. Your logic is that if other people do it, it must be right.... WRONG! He doesn't have a conservative view of things. From his posts, he has made the point quite clear that he has learned from his mistakes and is trying to share what he has learned with other people on the forum.

You keep proving that is okay for someone to sleep with someone and not have a commitment with them, which is what you are doing. You are sadly mistaken if other people will pat you on the back for doing what you are doing.

[girl68]

Kaysie clearly doesn't believe I can just be friends with Tara. On some level I suppose that's valid since, if Tara gave the green-light, I'd be all over her...

Okay do you think Kaysie is that stupid? Do you think she doesn't know that? THIS makes you a scumbag. A non scumbag wouldn't be saying this.

Taking a break is fine, hooking up with others is fine, keeping them in the dark, refusing to break off what is probably a very tempting friendship isn't.

[devonbrown]

Everyone calm down a little... There is something to be said for Dave posting this in the first place. Maybe he feels a little bad about the situation. Maybe he really is looking for some advice on how to continue this situation. But right now it seems that we are all just feeding off each others' mud slinging and that is not going anywhere.

For my part though, I think I spend too much time even reading this thread. But since I did, I may as well offer my thoughts:

First, Dave, you were the other person in Kaysie cheating on her husband. While that doesn't make you a cheater, it does make you a partner in her cheating. If you cared about Kaysie, you would have waited until she was separated from her husband to begin your friends with benefits relationship. You may not have broken up her marriage, but you did not help her either. This says something about your trustworthiness and any future relationship with Kaysie as becoming fruit from the poisonous tree, so to speak.

Second, your sleeping with Tara while on a break with Kaysie is fine. You had every right to do whatever you wanted. However, getting back with Kaysie without telling her about your situation with Tara does make you less than honorable. And untrustworthy.

Third, your two relationships "overlapping" for 30 days is a very interesting way to spin the fact that you were cheating during that time period. Again, I return to untrustworthy.

Fourth, those who are in the wrong quite often will try to place blame on others. Your comments about Kaysie is going to ruin things, etc. sound like it is the way you are convincing yourself that you are doing nothing wrong. Perhaps the dishonesty applies to how you think about yourself as well.

Now, before you start saying that I am name calling, please keep in mind that the only name I have called you in this reply is "Dave." I have made comments about what I believe to be some of your qualities based on the small amount of information I have available to me (your original post and subsequent replies). You have asked for advice, so here is mine:

Try this - Be honest. Completely. With yourself. With Kaysie. With Tara. With everyone. You may end up without either of them (which wouldn't be a problem for you it seems, since you have so many other options for relations), but if you do continue friendships or relationships with either of them, it will be on a more honest and equal level. Long-term, though, you will be better equipped to handle yourself more honorably with whomever you meet in the future.

[SelflessnHumble]

It's kind of like an exclusive "friends with benefits" thing.

So then I am correct. You just want to bang her without manning up and dealing with the inherent
responsibilities of being in a committed so the best you can do or offer her is:
"Well, if you don't like me banging you for sport, then leave."

Yeah, it makes perfect sense. See, it stands to reason your poor choices in how you go about
your relationships are the very cause for your issues. You just don't have your shit together Dave.
And when it comes to Kaysie? Neither does she. A match made in relationship tormenting bliss.

A women needs stability, not some wishy washy politician acting as a BF without being a BF.
What a ****ing joke your entire view of the relationship and it is why you reap what you sow.

You most definitely have a right to your opinion, and even though it is a shit stain of an opinion...
I can respect it. If you haven't noticed: I'm attacking your actions (not who you are) I'm attacking your poor excuse of an argument.

I am quite capable. I dated my ex for 3-years, fully committed, etc. With Kaysie I have reservations for a long-term relationship because of the baggage that would come with it (her son and her ex-husband's drama)

Look Dave. No one is singling you out here.
In fact both YOU and Kaysie aren't good people (as I said earlier)
Both of you FAIL in relationships and there is more than glaring evidence as to why.

I never settled for the "title scheme". In fact, she's the one that invented it! "Dating but not dating" is how she coined it. I wanted to seriously date but she was opposed to it, saying she might get back with her husband. Then suddenly she wanted to date but obviously I was skeptical based on how she'd been talking before about it.

Perhaps you missed it where I had specifically said: YOUR title scheme which implies
to her not you. There is no excuse for your relationship issues.

What you are basically saying is:
*I* am perfectly fine banging you without treating you with love, honor and respect.
*I* don't have a problem reaping all benefits of a committed relationship while having NONE
*I* like dating STUPID women who have no priorities (for her son) and ZERO self respect (for herself)

Kaysie is an unpaid whore and you've got zero issues with that one. K Dave.

Guys CAN have sex with a girl without making her a girlfriend and vice versa. This happens all the time. It's clear that you have a much more conservative (I'd argue uptight) view of things, but don't presume that the world shares this vision. You don't have to agree with it.

When I was younger and stupid (like you appear to be) I did the very same thing.
Except I was better at half-assing relationships than you are.
I used sex against women because *I* know how they equate sex with love.
I enjoyed having all the rewards of a real relationship and when I chose to invoke "well, you're always free to go" card. It worked every time because I had nothing to lose...But ask yourself Dave...Does she? Unfortunately her stupidity (due to desperation) has her coming back.

A good woman knows there's more to a relationship than Dick, Dave...no matter the size.
A zero-standard prostitute feels the pinnacle of a good relationship depends on her Orgasms.

It absolutely matters! Are you retarded?? If I said to her that I wanted a break and the next day ****ed someone else then told her 2 days after "let's be involved again", you don't think that's kinda shitty? The person that initiates a break is more hurtful. I was the one rejected, and rather than sit around and mope about it I took action. Sorry I made use of the time SHE gave me. Jesus.

Why does an Agnostic use the word "Jesus?" That's pretty ironic.
When I was like you I was socially retarded just as you are now.

Both of your actions are shitty. There is no "well, I'm less shitty than her."
She initiated the break: because a whore wasn't going to become a house wife.
Deep down she knows you are just using her and she is cool with that.
Just as you are cool for receiving what you get without any liability. -Hence the coward connotation.

It wasn't baseless. I actually cared about Tara a great deal. She and I have more in common than anyone I know. We practically finish each others sentences! And she and I actually got to know each for a month as friends before entering the bedroom. Kaysie and I ****ed the first day we hung out together! THAT was meaningless (tho later evolved into something meaningful). And you don't think having a relationship while on a break is appropriate?? Then what the hell is the break even for?!

The point of a break from a relationship is to remove yourself from it and live as though single. Maybe you've never had a break before?

First, when good (hearted) people take a break (not break up) They don't jump
into a relationship the next day, no matter what. See for the both of you, you did.
This proves (1) You do not love her and (2) It proves she needs sexual gratification for a man to "love her." Both of you are just horrible people with subpar standards and your excuse is:
"This is 2011, not 1885." -A sick joke and sadly both of you are the punchline.

2nd, I've been on many breaks which should just mean "let's break up and I don't want to see you anymore." THIS is how grown ups break up. When someone asks for a break it actually means
they need time to figure out their next move. To vague and seemingly ignorant people:
It means go F other people because we aren't technically together which is equally as hilariously ironic considering You both NEVER had any commitment anyway!

Last, The fact you and Kaysie had sex the 1st day you hung out tells me she has no self respect
and neither do you! You actually think it is perfectly fine to have sex with a married woman
on the 1st day!!!!! Oh, I forgot, "but she was unhappily married."

This is called piss poor judgment for the both of you.

I have sat down with Kaysie and we mutually agreed that we didn't have a title, but reaffirmed our committment and are re-building any trust that was lost, and I even told her how much I did care for Tara but that nothing would develop with her.
I WAS honest and I DID/DO give a shit. Oops!

So, you were honest with Kaysie when you INTENTIONALLY OMITTED the fact that IF
Tara showed interest in hooking up with you again: you wouldn't hesitate????
Yeah, sure you told her that one, right? Uh, huh...Oops WRONG AGAIN! (See how goofy that sounds?)

Actually the break started because she was pissed that I told her husband what was going on. I took the honest step she had refused to make in order to have a legitimate relationship with her. It was my efforts to have a committed relationship that caused her to take a break! So yeah, I figured that break would likely be permanent so I started something with another person. Then Kaysie surprised me by wanting a relationship. Her manic indecisiveness is a big part of why I said "no" to being official with her. I was skeptical.

so, NOW you say this??? Right. Your "story" keeps getting bigger and bigger as
time goes on and you feel it has no bearing on anything?

While you cannot introduce ethics when both of you are unethical
cheats it stands to reason it wasn't YOUR place to tell the husband.
You had NEVER stated you had wanted a legitimate relationship UNTIL NOW....why is that?
Did I turn up the heat so high than you were forced to reveal? It makes no sense Dave.

See, this is where you don't take responsibility.
"I figured the break would likely be permanent" is just ANOTHER ****ing excuse.
A relationship needs to have communication, not excuses like the one above or
"It wasn't any of her ****ing business" -as you had previously stated.
All this proves is that you aren't ready for a committed relationship.

Absolutely not. What I want is an exclusive long-term relationship with Kaysie or Tara. I care for them both, whether you believe it or not. It is humanly possible to feel strongly for two people, dick.

Dick? Am I getting to you?
Could it be the frustration of you being called out on your lack of responsibility and accountability
is taking an emotional hold over your sensibility?

You care for both of them? Red flag #1,345,394
You want both in your life, and only if Kaysie chooses to leave will you HAVE to be forced to accept it.
BUT since you're holding 5 Aces it is unlikely because she needs sex from you as replenishment.
of course it is possible to "care" for two women...It doesn't make it right Dave.
Especially when her motives for being with you are because of "Dick."

I have NO morals?? This thread is about a single relationship problem, not my entire goddamn life you prick.

God, Jesus and the bible aside, NO, you don't have morals.
Unless you count caring for two different women that you want sex from "morals?"
Actually, your life has everything to do with WHY you fail at relationships.
Prick? Why are you so mad Dave?


Continued @ Part 2 of 2

[SelflessnHumble]

No, I think these two women are individuals capable of making their own decisions.

Tara doesn't care about you. She just wanted a penis for some time.
SHE broke it off with you because she wanted MORE than you could offer and she got it.
It doesn't matter if she still sees you are makes contact with you either.
Sex for women isn't the same as sex for a man. Tara made her decision but
Kaysie's ineptitude precludes her from doing the right thing
(finding a good man for her son's sake, not her own) She already royally messed up big time.
And by even sleeping with her you have incidentally picked up her baggage.
She can't check it at the door when she still carries it daily.

Yeah, that's right. Kaysie is just a puppet and I have the strings. That's more insulting toward her than anything I've said or done.

She knows what is happening. But she doesn't GAS. Neither do you.
Both of you are puppets Dave. While one uses sex just for sport, the other
uses sex hoping to land by your side by doing so. In all actuality the 1st time
you and Kaysie had sex a great deal of respect would have been out the window
had YOU had any morals, but then again a REAL man would have told her to wait until
she decided (via a judgment) what she was thinking to do. Thoughts mean nothing.
Her actions reveal intent. And she has LOUSY intentions for herself and her child.

She thought I went over
her head by telling her husband that she and I were involved.

(1) You DID go over her head because it wasn't your place: YOU HAD NO COMMITMENT REMEMBER!!!
-It is irrelevant that your reasoning was that you had wanted a legitimate relationship: SHE DIDN'T!
(Evident by her reaction) and subsequent break. Everything is wrong here.

(2) The very reason you went over her head was due to your lack of control and emotional irrationality
(3) You couldn't respect the fact she was still married...So you wanted to intentionally RUIN
-her chances of getting back with him so that she could come back to you...sound right Dave?

That was wrong, definitely.

It is also cheating. A title means nothing Dave.
Exclusively screwing means you don't screw someone else.
This means that you did in fact have a commitment, albeit a shady and cowardly one.
You broke that commitment and well, how do you define a cheat? Did you short-change
Kaysie because you didn't have the balls to end it (With Tara) so you waited a month to do so? (Exactly)

Or maybe I'm just not ready for it? What the ****! So because Kaysie wants a committed relationship, and I presently do not, that means I'm insecure and a selfish coward?! You're out of your mind.

Both of you aren't ready for any sort of relationship because Kaysie thinks
that sex is how you show a man that you are interested in them and YOU think
that sex is just the natural order of things without commitment and responsibility that encompass
a resolute relationship and it terms of your relationship's structural rigidity: The word Flaccid comes to mind.

It wasn't an excuse, it was a statement of fact. And I was not officially dating Kaysie so it was not cheating.

It's an excuse and a very shitty one at that.
You can't even ****ing man up and do what is right nor say the right things because
you are so self involved with frivolous views of relationship etiquette.

For the billionth time, if I'm so awful to her then she should stop associating with me. If she were unhappy, I'd like to think she would leave.

Consider the facts.
You just bang her and she's happy but wants more.
She more than likely has been giving it up like easy money in order to land a guy.
She has a son, and now a future divorce is on the ledger. She won't divulge her true intentions
because she'd got to hide them: because you won't commit and end your friendship with Tara.
Hiding things is unhealthy for a relationship and is just another testament of your poor habits.

Because I'm happy with the relationship. The person that isn't happy should be the one doing the leaving. That's obvious, isn't it?

Of course it is. Just like it is quite obvious you don't really care about Kaysie.
Tara, perhaps.

Maybe because I'm sharing about my relationships and I'm not a homosexual? Why would my male friends come into play??

One day you will learn that whatever isn't included is excluded.
People write how they feel. (Obviously)
Even more obvious is that you're not looking for advice.
YOU are looking for agreement you deem appropriate.

Anyone reading this knows you are absolutely judging. Anyone care to tally up the insults? I've counted at least half a dozen.

A judgment is a final action that cannot be reversed.
I was like you but worse. Because I didn't even care for the people I hurt
and I KNEW I hurt them. Perhaps you never received affirmation while growing up.
Perhaps there are issues you've never dealt with that seep into your adult life?

There are no insults and you are way too emotional if you read my words in any other tone
than a calm/collected one. I help people, I don't judge them It is called astute observation.
The beauty of all this is that YOU can change how you treat people and perhaps learn that
when people have sex with someone: they are sharing and entrusting their "heart" through the expression
of the ultimate gift they can give to someone else. It should be only reserved for two people who truly truly
love each other and don't carry with them: baggage as the both of you in fact do.

I believe in relativity, not absolutes. Sleeping someone that is happily married to a nice guy? I would say no. Someone who is being abused by their alcoholic husband? I'd say yes. And I would do so again in a heartbeat.

You are just as abusive as the alcoholic.
Of course you don't see it because how could you?
You don't know how to be empathic period. If you did you would see that a person
who is abused doesn't need a cock inside of her, she needs affirmation, compassion,
love but above all else? Shown respect. It stands to reason she doesn't respect herself AND it also
means that she could have learned by your example; had you chosen to exercise good judgment by identifying her needs, not by exploiting them no matter who initiated the first touch.
You lack discipline on the ground that Pussy is a free handout without any obligations to reciprocate nor affirm...And you wonder why this drama ensues?

There are many legal benefits to being married, dipshit. It also shows committment. But agnostics just don't believe it's a "union of two souls" or that a "God" is involved.

Dipshit? See, this is what I'm talking about.
You cannot speak to someone who is in disagreement with how you treat people
without resorting to these petty 3rd grade attacks.

Lack of maturity big time. I see...so Marriage is just a great way to receive tax
benefits, not because it is representative of one's affirming love for one another.

(You wrote it shows commitment 2nd by using the word "also") <----This means
it's not a real priority to you for that basis. My point was that she had made the commitment
to be with that man until death. She makes poor decisions and you're a shining example of another.

Bring it on.

How old are you Dave?

I would very much like to date and be committed to Tara but she's ruled that out. It ain't happenin. I feel similar in regards to Kaysie but, as I mentioned before, being committed to her also brings along a great deal of baggage that I'm hesitant to embrace. She also has demonstrated some characteristics I wouldn't want the mother of my children to have.

Both of you are bad news together.

First, this is what you need to do:
What you need to do is to find a bachelorette who views sex as a fun thing to do (like a prostitute/pornstar)
With one glaring exception: While most prostitutes and pornstars are promiscuous...You require that:
They must be willing to commit only ****ing you without any form of obligation on a legitimate level, oh no...

With emotionally compromised women this is not possible: hence the exploitation factor.
For you it' simple: They just give up their "P" to you and you will gladly accept it.
Then once this women develops feelings for you, you avoid committing yourself with excuses
O.J. Simpson would be proud of.

Are you kidding me? I'm all for marriage, just not for myself until I'm in a place where I feel
comfortable. Same as anyone else. I want to be in a place of stability before I devote myself so fully to another person. Sorry.

When people read your OP they are thinking the same thing...

2nd, you want to be in stable place with someone who:

Cheats on their husband, (and her own child) who F's on the 1st day of meeting
someone (while married) then injects a tiny amount of reason into her mind by getting
upset that YOU "went over her head" and told her husband of the affair???

...Subsequently after wanting a break she then decides (obviously because her husband realizes
she's a whore and doesn't take her back) that she wants the title of having no title
with you while on one hand accepting this plea BUT at the same time seeing someone else
BEHIND HER BACK due to a technicality, "Uh but we weren't together!!!!???"

You're nucking futs man, really.

[Raze]

Everyone calm down a little... There is something to be said for Dave posting this in the first place. Maybe he feels a little bad about the situation. Maybe he really is looking for some advice on how to continue this situation. But right now it seems that we are all just feeding off each others' mud slinging and that is not going anywhere.

I'm leaning towards the fact that he is trying to be a forum troll.

First, Dave, you were the other person in Kaysie cheating on her husband. While that doesn't make you a cheater, it does make you a partner in her cheating. If you cared about Kaysie, you would have waited until she was separated from her husband to begin your friends with benefits relationship. You may not have broken up her marriage, but you did not help her either. This says something about your trustworthiness and any future relationship with Kaysie as becoming fruit from the poisonous tree, so to speak.

I agree. Even if you try to sugarcoat it, he still comes off as a scumbag. He should use better judgment when posting on a love forum. Lots of people on here have been cheated on or manipulated including myself. Of course, he's going to negative reaction from everyone.

You are putting it in a nicer way than I was, but scum is scum.

Second, your sleeping with Tara while on a break with Kaysie is fine. You had every right to do whatever you wanted. However, getting back with Kaysie without telling her about your situation with Tara does make you less than honorable. And untrustworthy.

I don't think there's anything fine about what he did. He dug himself a very deep hole. Everything he did made the hole deeper and deeper.

Third, your two relationships "overlapping" for 30 days is a very interesting way to spin the fact that you were cheating during that time period. Again, I return to untrustworthy.

This is as I've been saying. He cheated. He can spin it anyway he wants to make himself look innocent, but you can't bs a bser. Sorry.

Fourth, those who are in the wrong quite often will try to place blame on others. Your comments about Kaysie is going to ruin things, etc. sound like it is the way you are convincing yourself that you are doing nothing wrong. Perhaps the dishonesty applies to how you think about yourself as well.

The psychological term is projection, I believe. He is projecting all of his self-hatred onto us. It's a defense mechanism.

Try this - Be honest. Completely. With yourself. With Kaysie. With Tara. With everyone. You may end up without either of them (which wouldn't be a problem for you it seems, since you have so many other options for relations), but if you do continue friendships or relationships with either of them, it will be on a more honest and equal level. Long-term, though, you will be better equipped to handle yourself more honorably with whomever you meet in the future.

I have a better idea. Why doesn't he stop cheating and thinking with his penis? Also, stop bsing us, OP, we are smarter than that.