how to make sure we're NOT friends

[MynameisJesus]

I have decided to say goodbye to the friend zone. I've been hiding in it for too many people to make sure they like me.
Because of a lack of assertivity with women, I've been taken advantage of (as a nice guy) and have never been succesful in my approach.

So I'm trying to make things right and avoid being friendly to women I don't want as friends.

I'm gonna put my new approach in practice, starting next week. I want to approach new girls I have never met, with the intention of being lovers and not platonic friends.
In the early conversations, I think women can't tell what a guys' intentions are. Both the lover and the friend are friendly and build comfort in the first ours of contact.

BUT
Where is the point where the guy makes sure he wants to be lovers and NOT just friends? I am nearly 25 but I have never taken this step and I want to.
Is just telling her " I'm not looking for friendship with women " too direct?
Lately I've tried to ask a girl out on a private date. I thought that was a good way to make my point clear. She replied by changing the subject, not even saying yes or no. I ignored her after that and now she's running back after me.
I just want to know where I'm at without running in circles

[Take2]

Do NOT say "I am not looking for friendship with women." Because that is something men say when they mean "I just want to get laid, I will treat you like meat." Ideally, you DO want to be friends with a woman, in addition to lovers.

And actually, I think women CAN tell if you want a romantic connection, right from the beginning, ideally. If your approach is unclear, you are getting off on the wrong foot. There should be some flirtatious behavior and a smaller personal space and a certain solicitousness, right form the get-go. And certainly in a group of people, your romantic interest should be able to see that you treat her a little differently from other people.

[bumblebee21]

I always think its better to start out as friends then move on to being lovers. My oh and i were friends for about a year before we finally got it on. 8 years on we have our ups and downs certainly but we are best friends and not just lovers. We have so much in common and enjoy being around eachother. Its all good!

[the_robot]

I don't really understand what's wrong with being just friends. I mean, sure, you won't get sex, but who cares about that? It's not such a big deal is it?

[MynameisJesus]

Do NOT say "I am not looking for friendship with women." Because that is something men say when they mean "I just want to get laid, I will treat you like meat." Ideally, you DO want to be friends with a woman, in addition to lovers.

This really confuses me. I have always been very indirect in my communication with women. So they never assumed I wanted something sexual. Even if they gave me an obvious indication of sexual interest I didn't respond out of insecurity. But I'm sure women don't pick up on that and assume I just want to be friends.

The latest weeks I've tried to be much more direct in my approach because I realized where I was wrong. I was thinking that just telling her could scare her off as it is black and white. So I just asked her out to the movies, a private date.
Her reply didn't even involve the movies, she just changed the subject (WTF)
So my reaction was " Oke it seems that even this is not very direct and clear to her" and that's why I came up with this thread

I ignored her, and then 1 week later she runs back after me.
I am done with the BS of not knowing where I'm at. I have always thought that being friends and taking it slow was a good position to become lovers but I have learned that the opposite is true. The only response that it leads to is " I thought we were friends, now I am confused" which means " I don't want you as a lover but I do want you as a doormat"

[MynameisJesus]

I don't really understand what's wrong with being just friends. I mean, sure, you won't get sex, but who cares about that? It's not such a big deal is it?

Sure, let's never have sex and keep masturbating until I'm 60... It has gotten so far that my right arm is twice as big as my left one and bodybuilders in the gym call me "the wanker"

There's nothing wrong with being friends with the opposite sex but sometimes you have to make your true interests clear to be truly happy.

[xxazurexx]

Robot....some men aren't just happy being friends and with a certain woman....they would like more with her.

The way I see things is like this.

The only time and for the majority you will ever be 'friendzoned,' is if a female isn't attracted to you in 'that way. The only time I'd ever 'friendzone' a guy, is if I wasn't physically attracted, or if he may possess unsavoury qualities that I may be aware of - he's an arrogant jerk, a womaniser, etc, etc....in which case he wouldn't even get my friendship.

Whether you become her friend or not.....if she just is not attracted you won't get the girl.
If you become her friend and she is attracted in 'that' way, you will eventually get the girl and because she will be as keen to pursue it as you are.

But sometimes it's not as black and white as the above and there can be exceptions.

It appears that some guys tend to think, that just because they become a womans friend, means they will be instantly dismissed from ever becoming anything to her - that aint always the case.

I've gone from friends to lovers and with a guy before and because there had been an attraction from the outset.

I've also gone from friends and to lovers with a guy who I wasn't attracted too from the outset, but for whom an attraction grew in the friendship and when I got to know him as a person.

Overall though and if you are feeling that 'friends' doesn't get you anywhere/and it hasn't - then don't be her friend. Make it known from the outset that you are interested in more.
If you do this, it may save you save you months of wondering and if she is feeling the same.

[xxazurexx]

Do NOT say "I am not looking for friendship with women." Because that is something men say when they mean "I just want to get laid, I will treat you like meat." Ideally, you DO want to be friends with a woman, in addition to lovers.

I agree. When a guy mentions 'friendship', I instantly know that it's not just friendship he wants, but more and I've never been proven wrong.

But it's usually been the case for me and if a guy has been interested, they made it known from the outset.

I think shy guys or unconfident guys, will seek the friendship route firstly and because of fear of just making the interest known.

[MynameisJesus]

Robot....some men aren't just happy being friends and with a certain woman....they would like more with her.

The way I see things is like this.

The only time and for the majority you will ever be 'friendzoned,' is if a female isn't attracted to you in 'that way. The only time I'd ever 'friendzone' a guy, is if I wasn't physically attracted, or if he may possess unsavoury qualities that I may be aware of - he's an arrogant jerk, a womaniser, etc, etc....in which case he wouldn't even get my friendship.

Whether you become her friend or not.....if she just is not attracted you won't get the girl.
If you become her friend and she is attracted in 'that' way, you will eventually get the girl and because she will be as keen to pursue it as you are.

But sometimes it's not as black and white as the above and there can be exceptions.

It appears that some guys tend to think, that just because they become a womans friend, means they will be instantly dismissed from ever becoming anything to her - that aint always the case.

I've gone from friends to lovers and with a guy before and because there had been an attraction from the outset.

I've also gone from friends and to lovers with a guy who I wasn't attracted too from the outset, but for whom an attraction grew in the friendship and when I got to know him as a person.

Overall though and if you are feeling that 'friends' doesn't get you anywhere/and it hasn't - then don't be her friend. Make it known from the outset that you are interested in more.
If you do this, it may save you save you months of wondering and if she is feeling the same.

By reading this and analyzing your mindset, I get a strong impression that you are an adult woman and not a teen girl. There's a lot of "been there done that" in your posting which is fine of course, but I'm not sure that you have the same mindset as the typical girl I run into in clubs and pubs.

By the way.. The typical successful player type of guy that I hate with all I have, often takes a very obvious " I want sex and nothing else" - line and it seems to work. I'm not convinced that this message scares women. In fact I'm starting to think that that strong sexual message is what turns most women on

I used to think I was just physically unattractive. Now I know that is absolutely not the case, but it is my approach that was wrong. My impression is that if women get the idea that they can discuss emotional things with you, they associate you with their girl friends and you get a friend zone ticket no matter how attractive / unattractive you are.
I really appreciate your opinion but I have the idea that you see things differently than most women.
I've seen so many women on this forum confirm that it is almost impossible to fall in love with a friend

[xxazurexx]

Eh? ^ WTF difference does it matter, how old I might be?? Take2 is also an older female btw....as are many other females in this forum.

I'm still FEMALE, in my early 30's..... and you are still hearing a females point of view and whether it's what you want to hear or not!!

It is for the majority TRUE and that if a guy finds himself 'friendzoned', he will never escape it. But there can also be EXCEPTIONS and I'm proof that there can be and many other women around the world would say the same, who had gone from friends to lovers with a man

When I went from friends to lovers with the guy I was interested in from the outset, I was 18 and like the girls you are probably running into!!!!!!!!! The guy I went from friends to lovers with, for whom there wasn't an attraction from the outset, I was 33!!!! So you are hearing my point of view and from when I was a teenage girl to the present. I don't think much differently now as to when I was a teenage girl - I'm just much wiser than I was.

It is ridiculous and to say that if you become a womans friend, you will NEVER be seen as anything more. But you only be seen as more and if there is an attraction on her part for you to start with usually. While for the majority it may remain so and that they never get passed friends, there are ALWAYS exceptions and many, many exceptions that are not a part of these forums.

If you'd rather hear from 'teenage kids', rather than hear from a voice of experience, then up yours - you won't get my advice again. In future and when you post a thread, add to the headline of your thread 'TEENAGE GIRL ADVICE NEEDED'......LOL.

[xxazurexx]

Abusing hmm

No pet, putting him STRAIGHT!!

And you are fine one to talk about abusing...practice what you preach in future.

[MynameisJesus]

If you'd rather hear from 'teenage kids', rather than hear from a voice of experience, then up yours - you won't get my advice again. In future and when you post a thread, add to the headline of your thread 'TEENAGE GIRL ADVICE NEEDED'......LOL.

Lol I literally said I appreciate your opinion and then I get this sort of reply because I stated that I think your opinion is different than 90% of the women I've met. 90% of the women I've met are dumb superficial girls and you are not. Shame on me for telling you that, how abusive

I can even post the links that back up my opinion. In fact I will.
I'm not even claiming that their opinion is better. On the contrary it frustrates the crap out of me but it is how it is

[MynameisJesus]

Abusing hmm

Thanks for this contributing reply. I was looking forward to reading in your thread about your BF but noticed you have removed it. Truth seems so hurt

[xxazurexx]

Lol I literally said I appreciate your opinion and then I get this sort of reply because I stated that I think your opinion is different than 90% of the women I've met. 90% of the women I've met are dumb superficial girls and you are not. Shame on me for telling you that, how abusive

I can even post the links that back up my opinion. In fact I will.
I'm not even claiming that their opinion is better. On the contrary it frustrates the crap out of me but it is how it is

I've obviously misread or misunderstood your post.

Good luck to you, is all I have to say.

[smackie9]

Sorry but I have never did the friends to lover even tho I did have many guy friends. If I liked someone I went after them. My guy friends are friends for a reason....I'm not interested in them sexually period. Like I say never be friends with someone you want to date. You like someone ask them out, if they say no , change the subject or give lame ass excuses then you move on. This girl that never gave you a direst answer was avoiding saying no. She's chasing you down because she's an attention whore. You let her know you were interested in her so she is trying to use you for attention......she's done this before don't fall for that bull s hit.