Mind Expansion 101

[nomas]

I hate to restate something, but, yes..everything is relative. Even definitions. I hate when we can't be on the same page because of something as trivial as the definition of conciousness, or morality, or positive vs negative existence (which, by the way, I don't know how you define).

In donut's example, for instance, you never loose consciousness while sleeping, right? So how exactly do you define consciousness. To me, by definition, if you cannot remember something, you weren't concious of that moment...

But this is just a superficial comment alien to the deeper subject of this thread.

I had started to loose faith in an afterlife altogether. It seemed that I could find no logical support to its existence other than wishful thinking that we would keep living on, even after our bodies lives finished. Honestly, I still am not too sure I'm convinced otherwise.

Who knows if the future will prove that all these theories we have..as they are still only theories...about spiritual levels in are dead wrong and purely chemical. Think of the pattern we are following. The more we learn, the more we disprove these myths of "lights at the end of a tunnel when we die"...as it was proven that chemical releases in the brain cause such visions when you've been temporarily dead. Maybe it IS all biology..that's certainly the trend we're seeing.

But, of course, the counter argument is that these new theories are a bit more scientific and a bit less assumptions and wive's tales. Unfortunately, these theories have experiments that both prove and disprove all at the same time.

I guess I'm taking the practical approach, but wishing and hoping for the optimisitic approach.

Sombra..I liked your analogy of the center and spokes..made me think, rather, of a spiral, though: Phi.

Freds

[bohemiandonut]

The thing is, I don't see why there has to be such a boundary between the spiritual and the biological. Of course it's all biology, but, even that's a mystery, right? Even biology is f*cking mindblowing! Isn't it weird how all those near-death experiences coincide? I guess we won't know really until science allows us to bring back a person from the "other side." Or have they already, and you're still skeptical? What would make you believe? (It's good to be skeptical, though. First rule to being smart.)

About consciousness,

"To me, by definition, if you cannot remember something, you weren't concious of that moment..."

I'm sory, but this definition is simply wrong. Have you ever heard of people "blacking out" on alcohol? It's not passing out, rather, it's that they are so loaded when they wake up they can't remember what they did. Even if that was, say, set a building on fire. And you mean to tell me that at the time of striking the match, they were unconscious? I think they (at that time) would beg to differ.

Existence: Positive - To exist.
Negative - To not exist.

I explain both in my previous post.

[Chlorine]

Donut/Nomas-----Okay, since Nomas is losing faith in the idea of an afterlife, how about if we take up on Donut’s sentence about “…..jumping back into the game”. It reminds me of a theory I read about. It’s about living life to the fullest, to the extent that if you had to live life again, you would be willing. Think about it, think back to the sand-pit days, first-grade, etc. I don’t know where you are now exactly, but can you imagine reliving those years all over again. There would be good times and moments you’de rather forget. Assuming your life-span is 80yrs, what would you do NOW with the knowledge that you’de have to live it all over again. The same life, again and again for eternity.

Would you change your current perspective?

[nomas]

Let me see if I understand this correctly.

Are you saying: try to put yourself in the mindset that you've already lived a long life and this is your second shot at it. ? What would I do differently or what perspective are you talking about me changing? The whole idea of an afterlife?

Donut, sorry I guess I didn't read carefully before as far as your definition of positive vs negative existence...I guess it's just confusing that negative existence is simply none-existence..

Consciousness...I guess I'm just defining it practically. If I am myself at the time..a rational human being with all my wits about me, I'm conscious. I guess blacking out is a good example to refute that, though...and I cannot say "as long as I can remember something I was conscious at the time" because there are things we inevitably forget about. But, yeah, if you've blacked out on alcohol, you aren't the same Donut you are when sober. You're a different person and probably make different decisions..have different inhibitions..simply a different person. Which means you are not the same conscious being Donut is..right?

I'm not saying you have to be passed out to be unconscious..it's your current "normal" state of consciousness taking a break...going to sleep...while another takes over.. and I again, believe that it may all be explained in biology...neurology to be more precise. Your brain accessing different parts at different times.

Freddie

[misombra]

consciousness is simply being aware. the unconscious is what you are unaware of or things difficult to bring into conscious.

[nomas]

So is the guy who is blacked out from drinking too much conscious or unconscious?

Freddie

[blue]

life twirls and swirls some belive in one thing the other another, its whats within you from the get, what you decide to change or maybe to just stay the same. I am searching for something. sometimes it can be peace or excitement or whatever it is that i need fullfilled. i have learned that some just stake different pathways to get what they yearn for and some they just go one way and just dont care. As human being we all all have our fire in our own way what drives us to GO!!!! i kno wthat whatever it is it always keeps going, we always go for our own personal quest. Even though one day we will just be old one day we will sit down and look back. I remember the day i realized that i was growing up that i grew up, the day i looked in the miorror and i was no longer a chid but the new transformed girl with curves that i never seen before. i remember wasking up one day and i was suddenly 12. the days just go on by. death is not the end but it could be i guess i willnever know until im there and at the end sometimes i question will i even know then, what part of me could possibly continue i dunno yall im just talking about what lies within me inmy heart how i feel & what i belive. Sometimes i just wonder

[nomas]

Which again goes back to the whole "everything is relative" argument.

Really, things are as simple or as complicated as you want them to be. You can just look at the big picture: You're born, you live, you die.

Or you can break down each fraction of a second of existence down further and further and never end with the subdivisions...

Unfortunately the more we know, the more we are hungry for more knowledge....the unhappier we are at keep finding out how little we know.

Ignorance is bliss.

Freds

[bohemiandonut]

I disagree. Ignorance is easy. I say, you have a brain you might as well use it.

But, yeah, if you've blacked out on alcohol, you aren't the same Donut you are when sober. You're a different person and probably make different decisions..have different inhibitions..simply a different person. Which means you are not the same conscious being Donut is..right?

Let me try to get what you're saying: That since I can't remember making those decisions it wasn't me who was conscious while I was doing so? It was somebody else? Well, I suppose it's possible, but regardless of who was conscious at the time it was still my body, my biology and even neurology performing the actions. So if everything's biological how can you defend the idea of some other conscious being invading my own brain? That would be a real materialist no-no.

I'm not exactly trying to attack your assertion, I'm trying to change the way you see it. A good way to define consciousnes is as a link between emotions and experience. Since our experiences have so much to do with memory, as in how we choose to react to a certain situation. You're saying that if we seem to be reacting to a situation differently than we normally would, we must not be experiencing it with our normal consciousness self. I don't think this is necessarily true. If it were, wouldn't there be some sort of final memory, (in the "blacking out" case) where you were last yourself, right before your actions became posessed?

Since you cannot trace back to such a memory, the reason you don't remember probably isn't a problem involving a self-departure, rather, it's probably just because of a problem with memory. You could have been making decisions, fully conscious and lucid, but simply not storing the experience in your memory. Almost like a dream. Do you think that someone else dreams for you too? I wish I could live like that conquering consciousness for a while, you get to have people's dreams and be drunk for them!

You're supposed to be the pragmatist, remember?

Don't be persuaded into idleness, Knowledge is freedom!

Peace

[nomas]

I've never been drunk, so I can only speak of what I see from the third person.

Like I said, almost everything can be both proved and disproved by simple experiments or observations.

From what I've seen/heard/read, one who is drunk/drugged/temporarily insane does not have the same thought process as he is otherwise (assuming, for the sake of simplicity he's a he). You make behave differently, make different decisions than a sober you would. That's what I'm saying. Do you believe in hypnosis? Someone deep in hypnosis can probably be persuaded to do things that he would "conciously" never do.

This is what I'm saying. Even if your body can do certain things while under proper persuasions, doesn't mean you can do it under "normal" circumstances. Even in the case of a mother who can suddenly summon the strength to lift a vehicle to get her child free from under a tire...do you think that under normal circumstances this same mother could just go up and lift a car?

I think it's terminology again. You keep wanting to refer to it as shifting consciousness.. under the law of conservation of consciousness, I guess... I'm saying chances are that it's just a chemical response to where the biology adjusts accordingly to the adrenaline and whatever acids are necessary to burst your muscles to perform a feat of strength.

Whatever the stimuli, the biology affected by it will behave accordingly. In the case of alcohol..it will start by removing your inhibitions and increase your courage..maybe you'll take more risks..whatever. This is why it's called "under the influence". Of course you're responsible if you consciously (there's that word again!) took the stuff and didn't take precautionary steps to have someone drive you home instead of you going out and running over somebody while drunk.

What if someone pumps you full of drugs against your will and then you go out and do stupid shit? Are you liable because it's still your body that physically pulled the trigger?

Ignorance.

I've been to towns where they don't know what the word philosophy means. They learn to add, subtract, divide, and multiply. They farm. They are a simple people, and as such simple things bring them immense pleasure and make them laugh and be happy.

This is why ignorance is bliss...but as I said..the more you know, the more you want to know. You and I will keep on the pursuit of further knowledge and the quest to understand..but the chase will turn out to be the extent of it our excitement because we will never understand. Because there are deeper and deeper levels, no matter how deep we get. Look at my quote. We are not more enlightened than Socrates.

I think this is why most geniuses look so damn sad in most of their pictures. They are not a simple people made happy by simple things.. It takes a lot to make them happy.

Damn, Donut, I'm scheduled to go to Florida tomorrow and not come back to work till Wednessday. It'll be a while before I can have a rebuttal to whatever you reply, but I hope we can keep this up.

Freddie

[misombra]

"almost everything can be both proved and disproved by simple experiments or observations." nomas...

i can't get past this. I completely disagree. nothing can be proven. and if nothing can be proven then nothing can be disproven either.

[misombra]

with experiments and observations statements can be made. think of it, people used to believe that earth was flat. it was supposedly "proven" by whatever methods they used to "prove" things in those days. it was the grand perspective, exactly like the perspective that we have that earth is round. i mean, everybody knows the world is round, right? but we can't necessarily prove it. we could, like you say experiment and observe and be able to come up with some reasonable explaination for things, but someone in the future could come up with a completely different explaination. it's happened before, it's happening now, it happens all the time.

[bohemiandonut]

I think what nomas is trying to say is that the world is so complex and surprising, that any theory can be supported with a real-world example.

Since you've never been drunk, allow me to explain what being in a state of altered consciousness is (ha! what a proposal.) You talk about doing things "consciously," but you make a fundamental error as to what you define consciousness to be. When you are drunk, stoned, or even hypnotized, it's true you might be more inclined to behave in an unusual way, and it's also true that your thought process is different. I also think that your behavior at any time is the product of 4 things:
1. The physiology of your brain,
2. whatever neurotransmitters happen to be controlling it at the time,
3. your situation,
4. and your memories (past experience.)

These are variables, and they can affect how you act, and how much you remember of acting. But, you keep changing the definition of consciousness. Doing something "consciously" does not, as I interpret from your posts, mean you are acting how would normally, or even that you must remember what you are doing (your memory capacity also depends on those variables.) Being conscious instead means being aware of yourself as an observer.

Trust me, when you are drunk you can be as lucid and talkative as ever, and if people asked you if you were conscious you would probably laugh in their face. However the next morning you could easily forget what happened. Unless...

You recorded yourself! This works, I have done it on many a journey into altered states. Listening to a tape of a forgotten moment is almost exhilirating. Though you had forgotten the event, hearing it again allows you to focus it more clearly in your memory, and there is a clear sense of having been conscious and in control during the time, though it is all a bit hazy now.

Don't take my word for it, do some experiments of your own. To wrap my own little point up, and address quickly your glorifying of stupidity, I leave you with two snippets from a pretty cool cat:

"To be shaken out of the ruts of ordinary perception, to be shown for a few timeless hours the outer and inner world, not as they appear to an animal obsessed with survival or to a human being obsessed with words and notions, but as they are apprehended, directly and unconditionally, by Mind at Large— this is an experience of inestimable value to everyone and especially to the intellectual."

"An intellectual is a person who has discovered something more interesting than ."

Though, about that last quote, I'm not quite sure I rank as an intellectual... yet.

I await your response! (and anyone else's) How fun this is!

[misombra]

"An intellectual is a person who has discovered something more interesting than ."

...sex.

[Chlorine]

I come back 24hrs later and this discussion is more convoluted than ever. I find it hard to comment, probably because I've lost the drift. The only thing is, if Donut says we are conscious at all times in whatever state - normal, drunk, awake, asleep....than I am wondering, and this is off the subject here, whether we are responsible for our actions. Mad people aren't prosecuted for what they've done - bashed someone over the head....but they were conscious at the time.

Donut's quote - "Being conscious instead means being aware of yourself as an observer"....mad people can't be held responsible but they are aware. However, they aren't conscious, really conscious of what they're doing. So maybe being drunk falls into that category....I'm somewhat tilted in Nomas' favour.

Hopefully this makes sense....