Inner Game

[Only-virgins]

I don't ask, "What's wrong?" any longer.

If I sense something is up, I'll just hold her.

I can't read her mind, but I can show her (as best as I am able without fumbling through a verbal exchange) that I will continue to be her man through whatever the issue may be.

And if, for some reason, there isn't actually anything going on, she typically gets turned on from being held, leading to some great sex anyway.

~Sphinx

Well, what frustrates me with that is that she being my girlfriend should be comfortable enough to open up and saying anything she wants too. No matter how bad the problem is.

Anyway.. OV.. what's the deal-e-o with piano-girl?

I gave her the note and we talked for a while. She said that she is bi-sexual and that she has a girlfriend. Meh, I didn't really push it further than that. She seems unstable and weird.

I think males and females equally tend to give answers like that. ^

Nah guys are more likely to just scream out the shit that bothers them and pisses them off.

[IndiReloaded]

Hasn't happened since I've started, but I'm confident it would work the same.

Chicken or the egg, hmm. I think you have figured something really important. Is this behaviour something you inherited by example, or you figured out along the way? I think its important. Mind to share?

[IndiReloaded]

Well, what frustrates me with that is that she being my girlfriend should be comfortable enough to open up and saying anything she wants too. No matter how bad the problem is.

Unfortunately, OV, there are ppl who, for various reasons, have difficulty w/clear, verbal communication. I'm told it is usually due to a deep fear of being able to handle emotionally charged verbal exchanges, but there it is all the same.

This is why I think Sphinx's post is so important. It provides a loving connection while letting the other person have the 'emotional space' they need to be able to compose their issue verbally.

[Only-virgins]

Unfortunately, OV, there are ppl who, for various reasons, have difficulty w/clear, verbal communication. I'm told it is usually due to a deep fear of being able to handle emotionally charged verbal exchanges, but there it is all the same.

This is why I think Sphinx's post is so important. It provides a loving connection while letting the other person have the 'emotional space' they need to be able to compose their issue verbally.

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the way he handles it but I think at some point she should express herself and let me know what is on her mind. It would suck going through days seeing my lover miserable and not knowing why.

[TheSphinx]

Chicken or the egg, hmm. I think you have figured something really important. Is this behaviour something you inherited by example, or you figured out along the way? I think its important. Mind to share?

It's learned behavior. I believe it's an idea inspired by David Deida in his book The Way of the Superior Man and supported by my experience with women over the years.

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the way he handles it but I think at some point she should express herself and let me know what is on her mind. It would suck going through days seeing my lover miserable and not knowing why.

OV, I make it a point to continue to date women who show the maturity and stability to verbally communicate with me when there is an issue relating to our relationship that she feels strongly about.

My previous post on how I typically respond was in regards to issues such as a bad day at work, PMS, etc; all events which are out of my control.

The first type of issues are always logical (should she go on birth control? should she get her own apartment?, etc.) and we have logical conversations about them.

The second type are always emotional (she had a bad day, she's worried about weight gain, etc.) and words seem wasted on such issues, to me. This is why I allow my body and my presence, in my closeness to her, to speak the things which are in my heart.

I feel that this level of communication is much stronger and clearer in these situations than trying to have a conversation over "what's wrong?"

~Sphinx

[GrkScorp]

I gave her the note and we talked for a while. She said that she is bi-sexual and that she has a girlfriend. Meh, I didn't really push it further than that. She seems unstable and weird.

That's AWSOME news!

Do you just realize what you just did?

I'm proud of you OV!

You realized that it's no big deal.. she didn't pull back, or reject your note or conversation, she didn't act mean or ignore you, none of that.. You got to realize the "normal/common" reaction of people.. And that's a HUGE step in realizing that in most cases, that's just what happens, you end up talking for a while, and the person who made the choice was YOU, (to cut to conversation short)..

Unstable & weird.. well, that's a judgement call..

Girlfriends/Boyfriends for Bi-sexual women mean nothing.. in fact, girlfriends for bi-sexual women mean less!

Lesbians with girlfriends.. abort! Very loyal to their partners.. (note on lesbians.. if they're not butch, they're highly emotional and sensitive.. and they're seeking that from a partner, along with someone who's either assertive/submissive depending on her type.. growing up, they don't find that from guys, instead they find that affection from girls.. plus they're attracted to a woman's body.. BUT.. they WILL have sex with a guy! Let me repeat that.. LESBIANS WILL HAVE SEX WITH A GUY!.. so don't be put off if a girl tells you she's a lesbian)

But don't cut her off OV.. keep talking to her in your classes following from today.. get her number and go out.. hang out together.. she'll be comfortable with it.. for all she knows/thinks.. she's told you she has a gf and you "understand"..

But her motive for telling you isn't clear or set in stone.. just like perfectly strait women telling you they have a boyfriend..

- 1. She doesn't have a bf/gf, but is lying to you because she's not interested in you (because you came on too strong)
- 2. She doesn't have a bf/gf, but doesn't want to feel like a loser who doesn't have a bf/gf, and she thinks it makes her seem more desireable (nice strategy; sarcasm)
- 3. She has a bf/gf, and given her other alternatives (you), she'd like to stay with him
- 4. She has a bf/gf, but just wants you to know ahead of time, so that if anything happens, she can sleep easy at night by rationalizing that it's YOUR fault if anything happens (sex only, not emotional availability), meaning you have to be discrete and afford her the comfort in feeling that if she does anything with you, nobody will find out because you don't talk about such things to other people..
- 5. She has a bf/gf, but again wants to let you know so it can be YOUR fault if anything happens.. and in this case, she's willing to cheat completely (sex & emotional availability), warning! She may sleep with you and then tell her bf/gf! Not a nice situation to be in..

I couldn't hear her or see her, but hopefully you can make a better judgement call as to which case she most likely falls into..

What's the most important, and you shouldn't overlook this, is that YOU qualified her, and YOU more or less rejected her as a potential date/gf because you found her weird/unstable after talking to her!

This was the next step a little further down the line.. but you noticed it all by yourself!

This is how things work.. and this is the state of mind you should be in.. you open up a group or a single person (and as you've seen, the normal/common reaction is no big deal).. and then after talking, YOU qualify and see if YOU are interested in her..

All that's happeneing, in effect, is that you see someone from across the room that "is attractive enough to be considered a potential gf, but not unattractive to the point where she is automatically disqualified".. you "open".. and through conversation you determine if she's disqualified (is she crazy, unstable, etc).. and then if she qualifies to be your gf (something special about her that you're attracted to and connect with, creativity, fun, etc).. So, YOU are qualifying her to see if she's good enough for you..

Just keep this in mind.. in the back of your mind somewhere, that's a good place for it.. i'm sure you have other more urgent matters to think about in life than to constantly be thinking about women..

But when the situation comes up.. when you see a girl you'd like to talk to.. I want you to think back to piano-girl.. if it helps.. maybe you'll hear a wisper inside your head.. "piano-girl".. and remember how it felt like to be in total control of the situation, how it felt like to be the one qualifying to see if she's good enough.. And as you feel that with the girls you'll meet.. keep in mind that piano-girl was really your "first" in this journey of yours.. she was the hardest case you'll have to ever deal with.. and that from this point on, maybe you'll notice how things are more obvious now, or maybe they'll just seem easier than the first time.. I don't know.. but i'm glad you've taken the first step OV

[Only-virgins]

1. She doesn't have a bf/gf, but is lying to you because she's not interested in you (because you came on too strong)
- 2. She doesn't have a bf/gf, but doesn't want to feel like a loser who doesn't have a bf/gf, and she thinks it makes her seem more desireable (nice strategy; sarcasm)
- 3. She has a bf/gf, and given her other alternatives (you), she'd like to stay with him
- 4. She has a bf/gf, but just wants you to know ahead of time, so that if anything happens, she can sleep easy at night by rationalizing that it's YOUR fault if anything happens (sex only, not emotional availability), meaning you have to be discrete and afford her the comfort in feeling that if she does anything with you, nobody will find out because you don't talk about such things to other people..
- 5. She has a bf/gf, but again wants to let you know so it can be YOUR fault if anything happens.. and in this case, she's willing to cheat completely (sex & emotional availability), warning! She may sleep with you and then tell her bf/gf! Not a nice situation to be in..

These make sense. I am not pushing it further with her. You kind of made me realize that there is plenty of options us guys have. In-fact...the amount of girls I socialize with has doubled at least since I made this thread. Don't know if it is a good thing or not but it is what it is. There is a new girl that sits in the cafeteria, I'm gonna talk to her Tuesday when I see her. Remember the first girl? in the hall? She introduced me to her friend after just talking to her for a while...more like ran into her friend actually...she stopped being all that interested..but as soon as I showed some interest for her friend she was all over me....bah women.

[miSSleepy]

EVERYTHING you do, say, or don't do or say.. is manipulation..

Obviously. Every chemical reaction and process is some sort of manipulation. But wake up, you know very well what I'm talking about.

Your actions, or lack of actions, shape the world around you, and the people within it.. If you choose to work, you will get paid, and spend that money on goods/services you want.. and by doing that.. you manipulate the demand for those sectors..

I work fairly ... I do what my job entails, I pay taxes and I get paid legally. I don't evade taxes, abuse my rights and privelages or demean my colleauges.

So keeping to the analogy: I'd get larger benefits by evading taxes and making my peers shoulder most of what my work should be. It's to my advantage, after all.

Similarly, if you DON'T work.. that money that could have been yours will stay with someone else, and he/she will spend it on things they wany, and will manipulate those sectors accordingly..

Because they're doing the job and deserving of the money.

A girl gets dressed up and walks outside of her house.. (manipulation?) Maybe yes, maybe no..

Yes, just like a peackock displaying his plumage.

They are offering all this fun to those around them, being funny, interesting, and having those around them feeling great.. (manipulation?) Maybe, maybe not..

Of course... women dress like pretty birds and look cute while men have everything to offer. yes, I remember you making this point previously.

From an early age.. girls pick up on a new lingo.. "womanspeak" or "womanese"..

You never cease to amaze me...

- "Omg! That looks so cute!" (That looks hot and sexy you lucky b*tch, I wish that would come in my size, I hate you for all the male attention you're going to get now)

Sure, we're all nasty little sourpusses, jealous of every pretty girl in a cute dress. I wonder who the pretty girl in the cute dress is jealous of then.

- "He's too cocky/shallow/an assh0le" (He's so fcukn' hot, but his confidence bothers me, I don't feel like I stand a chance with him, so just go along with me and agree that he's lacking in the personality department)

Actually, Scorp, if i told you you're cocky, shallow etc, what WOULD you think I mean?

(obviously, not all women are like this.. I'm fully aware i'm writing to you miSSleepy.. but a comfortable 80% are..

spit out the cold hard evidence and then I'll take this into consideration. Otherwise, stop gabbling.

When 80+% of women are using manipulation so naturally & fluently, and it can cost guys serious time and money and heartbreak to fall for such crap.. they're almost left no choice but to throw that same crap back.. Not because they want to be mean, or because they like to immitate women or anything like that.. but because they don't feel like taking on the role of the longtermprovider or emotionaltampon for every woman they like.. The minority of women who don't play games (not the ones that "claim" they don't).. are largely at ease with the 95+% of the male population who doesn't have a clue about manipulation.. The majority of women love these guys.. the more of these guys, the more free stuff they get.. it's the 5% of guys they don't like.. because it's like you just made a better version of MS Word! How do you think Microsoft would feel for someone to come in and invade on their copyright? Manipulation is almost patented by these women.. and now these guys come in and take away that feeling of control and power? Not cool.. What can women do? Besides b*tch and nag at it and try and throw negative adjectives and symbolism in an effort to associate it with these guys.. the majority is now interested in a guy they feel they can't control, it's a challenge, how rare.. the minority is simply creamed and taken unfair advantage of if such a guy can't realize that she's not playing games..

In other words, a large percentage of women by default are manipulators and it's the poor men who suffer, so therefore they need to take away this power.

Scorp ... wake the f&*%ck up to yourself. Go outside and get some field experience. Get yourself a real woman. I just can't believe how many guys on these board lap up your shit, but have you noticed that NOT ONE woman agrees with you? Of course you'll see this is some sort of feminine flaw where we're in denial of the truth, but get an effing grip, and no doubt in your rebuttal you'll make mention of me being a woman like you usually do (to women who rebutt you).

[misombra]

First of you don't know that unless you already assume your boyfriend is an idiot and two...you only proved the point that they say things they don't mean sometimes.

when people are defensive or angry, their iq drops quite a bit, and the irrational side of people come out. if you're trying to talk about something serious or logical to somebody who is defensive or angry, they're either not going to hear you, hear only what they want to hear, or hear something completely different from what you said.

yes, a lot of research has been put into that conclusion.

if you want to be with somebody who says what they mean, then find a girl who says what she means. and say what you mean, so a nice trust can develop.

when i'm upset or frustrated about something, last thing i want around me is the guy i'm with to be asking what's wrong a million times when i don't really feel like talking about it, or i don't know what's going, or it's a whole multitude of things.

asking what's wrong is inviting something to be said that you don't want to hear. if another person is upset, and you ask them what is wrong, the reason is going to be something about you. and it's probably not going to be good. but if you just calm yourself and maybe listen and try to be understanding, that person very well may forget about what they were upset about. because they're with such an understanding person. and don't even try to tell me that girls don't like understanding guys, because that is complete bullshit.

[GrkScorp]

In-fact...the amount of girls I socialize with has doubled at least since I made this thread. Don't know if it is a good thing or not but it is what it is

Well, I don't know.. all the women on the forum apparently seem to disagree.. but the results in the field seem to disagree with them.. it all depends on what you want to consider a better indicator, OV

That's great news though OV, i'm really happy that you're starting to notice that change.. the change you wanted to notice for yourself..

But I don't know if you're aware of it yet, perhaps you are, but an other change you're going to start to notice is how more aware you are now of all these subtle social dynamics.. And that makes for a much richer experience..

A word on cats & jealousy:

- A cat will never value all the attention and affection you give to it, until you take it away.. But what's really interesting to watch is when an other cat comes into the house.. All of a sudden, all that petting it used to run away from are now invitations for it to come rub up against you.. It now values your attention and affection..

Your going to start to notice this, and many more of these dynamics for yourself.. you seem to be pretty eager.. and a fast learner.. so i'm sure you'll have nothing but an orgy of experience in due time.. followed by posts of your success of course..

Note: (hallway-girl).. Most likely the case that she's just trying to claim you as her own property in front of her friend.. it's a status thing amung them.. if you let them both feel that she's successful in doing just that.. then you're just an other guy she's claimed under her belt.. if you play the issue further, and make her feel that she in fact doesn't have that control she thought she did over you.. she would have just DLV-ed in front of her friend, to her own self.. and perhaps feel like she did in front of you too.. then, you can start to re-shift attention from her friend back to her.. and for as long as you're DHV-ing.. she'll want that attention.. and that sense of jealousy will let her feel just how much she wants it.. up until that point she has "feelings" for you.. but it's not until she feels some form of jealousy that she knows very well that she "likes" you..

Case Study: (Since you science-people are into that)

- Waitress-girl (let's call her Yiota, 22)

- I was with my friend George & Maria the first time I saw her at this cafe'/lounge we usually go to on Friday nights.. So on our way out that night, I play a game with George & Maria, Yiota is watching.. then as we're leaving.. I go over to her "Hey, we're leaving, but do you have 5 minutes?" She said "yes" thinking that I was hitting on her though.. So I say, "Well, have you ever played the 5-question game before? (no).. well, it's really quick, it's just 5-questions.. but before we play, we have to make bets.. (Mish, notice the presupposition).. (her: ok).. What do you want if you win? (I get to be your waitress next time, haha).. Oh, you're asking for a little too much there, but ok.. fine.. well.. if I win, you have to tell me the name of the hostess that's here every Friday" (clearly, shifting focus to an other girl, she couldn't rationalize that I was hitting on her with certainty, to do so would be vain given the situation; so in effect, it relieved her of the pressure of feeling hit-on, and she opened up; and lost the game.. we laughed, I explained the game to her.. and then we left)

- Me and my friend Kosta come back on an other Friday, and I see her and signal for her to come over to our table.. I didn't say anything explicitly, but it was implicitly understood that she was to be our waitress, a symbolic gesture you can sense in the vibe got her thinking about last time (where she wanted to be our waitress).. She came, to our table.. and asked.. "You again, do you have any more games this time?" (what am I some circus clown? i'll tell you what, after you take down our orders, maybe something 'll come to me.. maybe..).. After she takes down the orders.. I hand her a list numberd 1-20, for her to write down 20 items.. at first she comes back and tells me she could only think of 10 items to write down.. (10? oh come on, you can do better than that.. take your time, write down 20 before you come back).. she comes back with 20 items, and I hand her my list.. the whole night she was busy serving other people, but memorizing my list.. (in effect, I was on her mind the entire night).. she comes back.. she did a good job, 16 items memorized.. told her her items, then mine, she was blown away.. At that moment, there was alot of touching between us; she definitely opened up, but being that she was working, around her boss and co-workers, and being that I was a customer, she was already feeling like she was crossing the line.. so I told her to get us the check.. As she did, I opened up the group next to us (2 girls, 1 guy).. Kosta saw her looking at us from across the cafe', and as she came back, she made it a point to stand between me and the girl I was talking to..

- Most recent friday, I go there again with Kosta, but this time i'm more serious about hitting on her.. (I had just cut things off with 34y/o Chile' girl).. We get a different waitress.. Open her, (stories, tricks).. then we get her to get some more waitresses to come over for (group tricks).. and then Yiota walks by.. waves, I pretend to not notice.. she waves again and smiles.. I smile back and signal for her to cut through the crowd.. a subtle brush against her exposed hips and waist to greet her as we chit-chatted, she touched my chest and arms as we talked, and I pulled back 40% of the time (subtle/implicit active disinterest).. and then told her "hey, can you do me a small favor? (yeah sure) can you tell the manager to maybe lower the music a little bit, there's no talking over this music.." She starts to playfully dance and ask what's wrong with it.. but I nicely insist that she go and ask him to lower the music.. she does.. and then comes back.. when she does.. I say.. "thanks.. that's much better.. (I pull the chair next to me out, without explicitly telling her to sit down, just looking at her eyes, then the chair, and her eyes again as I pull it out; she sits down) NOW (we) can talk.." More DHV-ing, and then I excuse myself to the bathroom as I tell her she should probably get back to work before the manager kicks us all out.. When I come back from the bathroom, me and Kosta walk over to the table where all the waitresses are hanging out, and we do an ESP-game on all of them, leading them to the same number.. then I leave by hugging and kissing goodbye (no, relax, it means nothing; we're both Greek, this is normal).. but all it does is show that (now the bartender, manager, and waitresses love me and I DHV-ed my @ss off to the point where they all think i'm this fun, funny, interesting, non-needy, great guy who makes them feel great on Fridays.. BUT, making Yiota feel like i'm most comfortable with her, her green-light into trying to win back my attention.. and it was working, it always does.. she was starting to work for my attention.. starting to invest her time, and go outside her comfort zone just to get more of it..)

- Upcomming Friday: (###-#### routine): On waitresses, it's a lot of work, never think that you're going to one-night-close a waitress.. it just doesn't happen.. if it does, it's probably a weak close.. It takes plently of DHV-ing.. a lot of tension-building, and some form of fear of loss or jealousy, or both.. In Yiota's case.. it'll just take a pretend-takeaway.. keep seeding to her the notion that it'll be the last night we ever come to that cafe'.. because the music is too loud, and hard to talk over.. but we'll miss her.. start off with seeding that night.. then DHV again.. and continue onto comfort-building with her.. the whole night.. what ALWAYS happens.. ALWAYS.. (just in case it didn't sink in) ALWAYS HAPPENS.. is as i'm about to leave, her emotions will get her to do it (she's invested and worked for it, she wants to see that return-on-investment; plus doesn't want to lose me after so much DHV-ing & comfort-building), or the other waitresses and staff will push her towards it and prevent her from chicken-sh*tting.. she'll come up and offer me her number, most likely either in person, or inside the check.. (why? fear of loss, it'll hit her.. "I might never see him again after tonight".. and i've done nothing for him to want to get my number, but I feel attracted and that sense of connection with him.. so i'm going to have to ask him for it.. "btw, do a good job of patterning and making her feel comfortable with the idea of giving you her number; like it's no big deal, and she won't need the rest of the staff to push her into giving it to you")

That's what it boils down to in the end.. routines.. routines with no doubt or uncertainty about the outcome.. You can almost predict the reaction you're going to get.. and that sense of zero doubt in your mind about your expected outcome, allows you to focus entierly on the process.. and the other person.. as it starts to become more automatic and instinctive, with the more experience and awareness you get of these dynamics.. That's the power behind inner game, OV.. nothing is scripted, there's just knowing.. knowing what's going to happen if you do something.. because you've seen it happen before.. many times.. and you understood why it happened.. you have a solid framework built into your mind about these dynamics.. and no longer have any doubts about the outcome..

Looking foward to more posts OV, and hopefully less PG-rated ones in the future

[IndiReloaded]

when people are defensive or angry, their iq drops quite a bit, and the irrational side of people come out.

yes, a lot of research has been put into that conclusion.

Yup. Emotions go up; intellect goes down. This is actually a well-known sales tactic, fyi, its not just for relationships.

asking what's wrong is inviting something to be said that you don't want to hear. if another person is upset, and you ask them what is wrong, the reason is going to be something about you. and it's probably not going to be good. but if you just calm yourself and maybe listen and try to be understanding, that person very well may forget about what they were upset about. because they're with such an understanding person. and don't even try to tell me that girls don't like understanding guys, because that is complete bullshit.

There is this too. I agree. Its interesting b/c I think this also applies to the 'how are you today', standard greeting also. Some ppl actually get offended if someone says 'actually, I'm feeling like shit today..'

If you don't want to hear the answer, don't ask the question.

[GrkScorp]

There is this too. I agree. Its interesting b/c I think this actually applies to the 'how are you today', standard greeting also. Some ppl actually get offended if someone says 'actually, I'm feeling like shit today..'

If you don't want to hear the answer, don't ask the question.

"I'm feeling like sh*t today" is such an amazing answer to work with.. you can talk about so much more via that, rather than a "i'm good"

You just have to make the best of the situation.. Wow, I just realized how much being a saleman really helps..

Back when I was working in Real-Estate full-time.. one of the first things I would ask potential buyers before I would even show them a house was.. "First of all, what made you want to start looking for a home? .. blah blah.. what do you think it would be like to own your first home?.. Have you ever thought about it before, what it would feel like to walk into that house you would end up owning, for the first time? blah blah.. Before we start looking at homes and start making offers, it's important to go inside a home and really get that feeling, that this is the right home for you.. I don't know when you're going to feel that.. maybe you get to feel that with the first home you walk into, or maybe it'll happen in as much as 5 homes down the line.. it usually takes people around 2-3 homes before they really feel that.. everyone is different though.. you can take as much time as you need.. I don't know, but I think you'll agree that it's important to get that feeling, where you just know that this is the home for you.. It's completely up to you though when you feel that.. I'm not here to force you into buying a home.. just to help show you homes, until you tell me that hey, I got that feeling.. this is the one.." To lock in the offer.. i'd re-stimulate those emotions with a home I could tell they were interested in.. and close "before you go ahead and, make an offer.. I want you to take as much time as you need to think about anything you may need to, i'll be in the next room whenever you're ready.."

And in under 5 showings, i'd usually pull offers.. But I guess something as major as owning your first home is sort of unfair.. it creates a surge of emotions to work with as a salesperson.. If you asked me to sell toothpicks or something, I don't think i'd be able to do it..

[misombra]

Well, I don't know.. all the women on the forum apparently seem to disagree.. but the results in the field seem to disagree with them.. it all depends on what you want to consider a better indicator, OV

actually the results in the field do agree. we are the field. we are people who have somebody who is loyal to us and somebody to whom we are loyal. plus, we out number you.

[IndiReloaded]

LOL.

I'm madly trying to remember what I was like before my husband, tho. I suppose, in fairness to GS, I was 'susceptible' to a certain form of communication. Problem for most of the poor sods trying to date me was that they didn't know how to communicate w/a female like me. For whatever reason, at least in my time, brilliant women were very intimidating to a lot of guys, even ones going to university as I was. Of those fellows who got most of my attention, the 'successful' ones were the fellows who figured out how to 'speak' my language & had the capacity to do so.

There, GS, stick that in your analysis pipe & smoke it. Let's hear how this translates for someone like OV, who wants a partner w/a brain.

[Only-virgins]

actually the results in the field do agree. we are the field. we are people who have somebody who is loyal to us and somebody to whom we are loyal. plus, we out number you.

It is only the field when the test subject doesn't know it is tested on. You girls here know what he is saying, so of course it will piss you off.