Apologists for Evil

[IndiReloaded]

Please. You can't even form a coherent thought or use proper capitalization. You simply enjoy looking like an idiot, Eco. Its okay, we all have our talents. Yours is to be the forum fool. Now, entertain me, you are boring.

[Yggdrasil]

Funny you say that because statistically Muslim countries have a lot less incidents of rape, violence and crime compared to western countries.

Have a lot less incidents of rape, violence and crime compared to western countries or have a lot less REPORTED incidents of rape, violence and crime compared to western countries?

Statistics are worth one thing: the paper they are printed on. I would call this a biased sample and/or hasty generalization.

If you want to argue this logicaly, you definitely have to leave statistics out of it.

[ecojeanne]

actually speaking of entertainment, i'm finding it hilarious how you keep going at it until you can say no more but insults even when i'm not commenting towards you, it's like an obsession with you, it's quite funny to watch indi, quite funny indeed

[IndiReloaded]

Have a lot less incidents of rape, violence and crime compared to western countries or have a lot less REPORTED incidents of rape, violence and crime compared to western countries?

Good point Ygg. If the law says you can hit, rape, and kill a woman with impunity its not likely that they are going to complain, are they?

[Yggdrasil]

Good point Ygg. If the law says you can hit, rape, and kill a woman with impunity its not likely that they are going to complain, are they?

Oh the Muslim law allows women to press charges against her husband for rape, physical violence etc. That's not the problem.

There's a condition attached to it though: she needs 3 or 4 male witnesses.

[url]http://www.worldproutassembly.org/archives/2009/07/afghanistan_leg.html[/url]

(welcome to reality)

[Mish]

Statistics are worth one thing: the paper they are printed on. I would call this a biased sample and/or hasty generalization.

If you want to argue this logicaly, you definitely have to leave statistics out of it.

Are okay.

So let's speculate, stereotype and not base our conclusions on anything concrete then?

[Mish]

These are some of the statistics of unreported rape in US, I wonder how the percentage of unreported US rapes compares to the unreported rapes of the rest of the world

AMERICAN and WORLD RAPE STATISTICS

The FBI estimates that 72 of every 100,000 females in the United States were raped last year. (Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime Statistics, 1996.)

SILENT VICTIMS :

One of the most startling aspects of sex crimes is how many go unreported. The most common reasons given by women for not reporting these crimes are the belief that it is a private or personal matter and the fear of reprisal from the assailant.

Approximately 28% of victims are raped by husbands or boyfriends, 35% by acquaintances, and 5% by other relatives. (Violence against Women, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994)

The FBI estimates that only 37% of all rapes are reported to the police. U.S. Justice Department statistics are even lower, with only 26% of all rapes or attempted rapes being reported to law enforcement officials.

In 1994-1995, only 251,560 rapes and sexual assaults were reported to law enforcement officials -- less than one in every three. (National Crime Victimization Survey, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice, 1996.)

[Yggdrasil]

Mish, that's my point exactly.

Many rapes go unreported.

In middle eastern countries the amount of unreported rapes is likely higher than in western civilized countries.

I have no data to back this up, it's only an assumption of mine. I base this assumption on how their culture deals with rape victims.

[Gribble]

Stats mean nothing in this debate. You can't rely on any real accuracy from certain countries. Furthermore, it's all beside the point. This isn't about US vs. Them.

It's about kicking political correctness in the balls and then hammer-punching it in the back of the head when it doubles over in pain.

Look at the UN's voting to ban defamation of Islam. Granted the UN is a joke, but it's scary as hell just to imagine such a consideration could be made in earnest.

Stop bringing up the US. Yeah, crime's hell over here. Yeah, the justice system sucks. But at least it is a crime to rape a woman.

[Mish]

Okay, in the interest of finding out the truth and see the unreported figures I did this additional research.

Has anyone heard of UNICRI? It stands for United Nations Crime and Justice Research Institute. I found that they do surveys in cities around the world specifically to target unreported crime cases:

SUMMARY

-------------------------------------------------------------

A fundamental requirement of a prevention-oriented approach to crime is the availability of extensive and reliable data, which unfortunately is not always to be found in either industrialised or, to an even greater extent, developing countries. Moreover, information that was available was based on official records produced by the criminal justice administration, and consequently its ways of dealing with crime known to the administration. Information on the "dark figure", citizens' direct contact with crime and criminal justice administration was not readily available. This situation prompted initiation of the surveys of victims of crime.

Victimisation survey is an excellent tool for collecting information on citizens' first hand experiences with crime and criminal justice.

Data collection

The International Crime (Victim) Survey in developing countries utilised the standard questionnaire administered by the interviewers in a face-to-face interviewing of a sample of respondents.

Some slight differences between the face-to-face (F/F) and CATI version, and between the various translations of the questionnaire into local languages, remained but it was felt that these would not impair the coherence and comparability of the instrument and the results. The questionnaire was prepared in English and translated and administered in the local languages.

Victimisation rates

This section presents an overview of the selected main findings in developing countries. The victimisation rates presented are prevalence rates: the percentage of respondents aged 16 or more who reported being victims of crime once or more, either individually or as members of a household. The time span covers the calendar year preceding the survey (in most cases 1991; in South Africa and Tunisia 1992 and in China 1993).


Comparisons are interesting, but difficult because a 5 year sample was taken of developing countries and only a one year sample of industrialized ones (meaning that for real comparisons the rate in industrialized countries is much higher than in figures below, to compare multiply it by 5), never the less:

The highest rates were found in North Africa, where 33% of the interviewed women experienced sexual incidents in the last five years, followed by Latin America, Sub-Saharan Africa and Asia/Pacific with rates close to 15%. The least victimised were women in Asia (10%) (With India at 3%).

For industrialized countries questioned for the last year (not 5 years) The one-year rates were highest in Australia (5.6%), Canada (4.1%), the USA (3.7%), West Germany (3.3%) and Poland (3.2%).

Victims of offensive sexual behaviour were also asked whether they regarded the incident as a crime. In the seven countries for which data are available, more women in Sweden, England, Belgium and Italy felt it was (in excess of 50%), whereas there were lower figures for the USA, Canada and Australia (around 45%), and the lowest of all for the Netherlands (15%). Very tentatively then, in countries which might be seen as more permissive in their attitudes towards sexuality, women
are sensitive to offensive sexual behaviour but seem less inclined to label it as criminal.

[url]http://www.unicri.it/wwk/publications/books/series/n55.php[/url]

[url]http://www.unicri.it/wwk/publications/books/series/understanding/04_industr_countries.pdf[/url]

[Petit Papillon]

Funny you say that because statistically Muslim countries have a lot less incidents of rape, violence and crime compared to western countries.

Check this out

Misha yeah You are right, You know why? Because for such things in Arabic countries, You can get stoned, decapitated ,hanged etc
Would You dare to rape or kill if You`d have on horizont very very painfull decapitation or stoning ? I wouldn`t

PS. But the best thing is, victim of a rape in arabic countries ALSO gets punished for it. That`s the honour murder . OR yeah instead of murdering the victim someone from her family throw for example acid on her. Very very good victim support...

[vashti]

After we were told that it was safe..We come out and there's like bullet holes in every house, broken windows, some roofs were badly damaged..Within a short time they told us we were going to be leaving for this city (near border with Croatia).

We got into buses and didn't really think we were safe. People kept panicing...After getting there, we got off and their soldiers started robbing us, taking whatever they thought was valuable..I remember one of the ladies had this necklace and pulled away from a soldier when he tried to grab it and started running...The thing is, the bastards had snipers up in the mountains so a lot people including her got shot..

So we started running and I remember seeing so many bodies by the road..some of them stank badly...So i just focused on running....When i got down, i waited for my mom and brother but they didn't show up for a long time...Now when i say hill, this is a long road going down..basically you are talking miles and miles..I didn't think i would make it and still think it's a miracle.

We got to Croatia after spending some days in the city called Travnik. There we waited for my dad to be sent home..Or to hear the news that he was dead..which happened a lot. He was there for six months and when he came back and told us all the horrible stories they did to people...One of them (a person tied one leg to a tree and the other they pulled it with some machine..basically they split the guy...After hearing all the things that happened to people in those camps, i knew we had it a lot easier. So now i think about what i have and try to appreciate even the smallest things...suffering teaches you a lot..and some get it even if they never suffered and others never truly get it.

I am moved by your stories. I would love to hear more. What a miracle it is that you are still so lovely and kind after seeing such ugliness! How old did you say you were at the time?

[Yggdrasil]

Mish,

well, let's have a look at Sharia Law:

(1) "Proof of Zina (adultery) or Zina Bil-Jabr (rape) liable to Hadd shall be one of the following:

(a) The accused makes confession or

(b) There are at least four Muslim adult male witnesses"[01]

(2) "Proof of adultery or rape liable to Hadd shall be one of the following:

(a) The accused makes confession, or

(b) There are at least four Muslim adult male witnesses."[02]

(3) "Punishment will take place when Zina or rape have been proved by witness."[03]

(4) Sharia Law rejects the witness of women in Hudood cases.[04]

(5) "The evidence of women is originally inadmissible on account of their weakness of understanding, want of memory and incapacity of governing."[05]

Because such "proofs" are almost impossible to obtain and because circumstantial evidence is not accepted, a rape cannot be proved as rape in a Sharia court. Instead, "sex outside marriage" is proved for the woman by her complaint or physical scars or torn cloths or pregnancy etc.

Then the law of "Punishment for Sex Outside Marriage" i.e. stoning to death for married adulterers and flogging and exile for unmarried adulterers are applied to the rape-victims.[06]

On the other hand, a rapist has simply to deny the crime and go scott free.

DNA tests have no place in Hudood Laws either. About conducting a DNA test to identify the rapist: "Justice Ali Nawaz Chauhan of the Lahore High Court has observed that the DNA test is not acceptable as evidence to establish the offence of Zina under the Hudood laws which require a direct testimony in such cases.."[07]

Sharia courts in Pakistan have punished thousands of raped women by long term imprisonment.[08]

On October 30, 2008, the United Nations condemned the stoning to death of Aisha Duhulowa, a 13-year-old girl who had been gang-raped and then sentenced to death by a Sharia court for fornication (Zina). She was screaming and begging for mercy, but when some family members attempted to intervene, shots were fired by the Islamic militia and a baby was killed.

Local Sharia courts in Bangladesh regularly punish raped minor girls and women by flogging and beating them with shoes.[09]

Similar cases of punishing raped women are Mina v. the State, Bibi v. the State and Bahadur v. the State.[10]

Now, I'd like you to honestly answer this question:

do you honestly believe, under such laws, that a woman would feel compelled to report rape?

Sources (so you can look this up yourself):

[01] Pakistan Hudood Ordinance VII of 1979 amended by Ordinance XX of 1980

[02] Codified Islami Law Volume 1 Law#133

[03] Ibid Law #135

[04] Hanafi Law-Page 176, 353, Shafi'i Law- page 638 Law#o.24.9, Criminal Law in Islam and the Muslim World -page 251, The Penal Law of Islam - Kazi Publications Lahore- page 44, 45, Tafsir of Translation of the Qura'an by Muhiuddin Khan pages 239 and 928

[05] The Penal Law of Islam - Kazi Publications Lahore- page 44 - 45

[06] Hanafi Law Hedaya 178, Codified Islamic Law#129 Vol 1, Sunan Abu Dawood Book 38,4451& 4423

[07] [url]http://www.dawn.com/2005/05/21/top4.htm[/url]

[08] Annual report of the US Commission on International Religious Freedom, May 2004 - Ref - National Commission on the Status of Women in Pakistan.

[09] The Daily Star on 04 April 2006

[10] "Rape Law in Islamic Societies" by Julie Norman, CSID 6th Annual Conference

[Mish]

Yggdrasil, my last post has nothing to do with Sharia Law or police reports or courts. It's simply results based on surveys of people in various countries around the world interviewed by UNICRI. It's pure, unbiased data filled out by participants privately and individually. Though having said that, as you know not all Muslim countries have Sharia law (only Saudi Arabia and Iran maintain religious courts for all aspects of jurisprudence)

Such a resistance does make me wonder if our perception is really objective and not rooted in some sort of stereotype. Anyway, what did I want to say by this? A hijab is as much a symbol of rape and violence as Nike shoes and designer clothing.

[Asip4u]

I don't even know why we are arguing about certain Arab countries being cruel to women..You guys keep bringing it up like we think it's ok what they do. I agree they have problems...Nobody is denying it...What i want to know is how you can label huge group of innocent girls/women wearing the burqa or hijab as filth based on the comments in the video? Are you aware there are also white muslims who wear the hijab?