The God Illusion?

[IndiReloaded]

That's not the impression you gave with the comment above. You said that there is a blank. That Religion covers something that Atheism doesn't. How does that become a blank in my statement?

No Mish. I was responding directly to this:

If you are denying that Atheists don't give life positive meaning, please show me a leading Atheist Idea where an Atheist thought says that "life has a positive meaning because ..."

The numbers are not irrelevant. Because if Nihilists make up 90% of atheist community it makes Atheism very dangerous.

More dangerous than Religion? That has caused more death and suffering b/c of people believing a lie than atheism has ever caused? Are you serious?

I'm eeriely reminded of Galileo and the Catholic Church. I am certain that someone must have said something very similar to your statement Mish.

Never, ever be afraid of the truth, Mish. Honesty is always better than lies. Humanity will adapt, there is no reason to stay in the dark.

The core issue at the heart of Atheism that it does not give life positive meaning or provides any resources for people to give life positive meaning because any universal factual positive meaning in life falls outside of scientific method and is therefore in opposition to Atheism. I also challenged you to find an Atheist thought that would say "Life has a positive meaning because...." something that you did not provide.

I don't need to Mish. Did you understand Neo's post? Atheism = disbelief. It is NOT a philosophy, it the absence of belief. You seem to not understand this very simple point. If I disbelieve in leprechans that doesn't mean I need to come up with something better to replace them. That is just a stupid argument.

What you are wanting is a philosophy. I gave you one. Secular Humanism. Its better than religion for the reasons I said.

Why don't you explain why you think Religion is better than SH, if you can?

[Mish]

No you don't.

For example:

All apples are red.

Except when they're not.

See?

Fras, it was reply to

I don't see why people can't be taught values separate from religion.

My reply is people might be able to be taught that, but not in their current form. Because you can't assign meaning and purpose to something that inherently does not posses it. Not until Atheism promotes a universal reason why life has a positive meaning and purpose and the reason why morals must be followed which will justify why these values must be taught.

[IndiReloaded]

So you propose to keep people in the dark until the 'better option' is fully developed?

LOL. Mish, the first step to solving any problem is first acknowledging there IS one. And letting people know that belief in God is completely irrational is that step. It will *cause* people to think about all the questions you propose. That, to my mind, is never a bad thing. It causes growth, in this case, of humanity.

I think I'm not the elitist here, Mish. I have an unswerving faith in the ability of humanity to grow and do better, but they have to be given the right tools (rational thought & education) and a goal (bettering themselves and humanity) to get there. What you are proposing is Garbage In. As you well know, all you can expect from that is Garbage Out.

[Mish]

More dangerous than Religion?

Yes, even more dangerous than Religion which has saved a lot more lives than Atheism ever has and made a lot more positive contribution to the human cultures.

I don't need to Mish. Did you understand Neo's post? Atheism = disbelief. It is NOT a philosophy, it the absence of belief.

And yet it is seeking to change our culture in a very similar way a philosophy does. You disagree with Religion being forced onto people, well then why should this change to my culture and the society I live in be forced on me if I don't find it acceptable?

Why don't you explain why you think Religion is better than SH, if you can?

Like I said, I'm not pro Religion in their current forms. I believe there has to be reforms. But I also accept the fact that Religion gives life positive purpose and meaning, it states that there is right and wrong, universal truths and morals that should be followed. It fills people's lives with positive meaning and purpose and provides a road map of what actions lead where based on centuries of tried and tested ancient wisdom (with some BS in between). Is it perfect? No, it's not. But in my opinion it's better than nothing or at least better than current alternatives which are not yet developed to provide the same.

[IndiReloaded]

So. You prefer a lie to the truth even when there are other alternatives that are out there? Interesting. I would have thought you'd want to help develop those new philosophies.

Right vs. wrong. Moral code. Ethics & standards. Secular Humanism can make up the same 'rules' that Religion uses. Easily. The difference is that those tenets could be chosen b/c they are *reasonable* not b/c some fictional higher power has told us 'that's just the way it is'.

In fact, if you read more, you will find that the overriding theme to SH ethics is that it must serve to help humanity grow and develop. Seems like a good 'guiding principle' to me. Much better than some arbitrary set of rules that people follow b/c some burning bush told them to.

You need to think about your position more, I think. Its very tenuous.

[Mish]

It causes growth, in this case, of humanity.

If you tell people that life has no positive meaning and there is no way they can find one using scientific method, but yet scientific method is the only way they can find it discounting everything else, then you will not cause growth, but regression. Besides all of the obvious cultural and ethical issues, having a positive meaning in life is a human need (at least according to psychologists) and not having one has a direct impact on personal well being (ironically the same thing SH say they want to better).

I have an unswerving faith in the ability of humanity to grow and do better, but they have to be given the right tools (rational thought & education) and a goal (bettering themselves and humanity) to get there.

I believe in the same principles, ability of humanity to grow and do better, but they have to be given the right tools (rational thought, education, ethics grounded in integrity and positive life meaning) and a goal (bettering themselves and humanity and the reasons why grounded in ethics) to get there.

[Mish]

So. You prefer a lie to the truth even when there are other alternatives that are out there? Interesting. I would have thought you'd want to help develop those new philosophies.

Indi, this is all a matter of opinion. For example life has positive meaning and purpose for me, if an Atheist tells me that it doesn't because my definition does not adhere to a strict scientific method then I see THAT as a lie and I refuse to accept that lie as a truth. And I don't want that lie to become popular in the same way I don't want some of the lies from Religious leaders become popular as well.

Right vs. wrong. Moral code. Ethics & standards. Secular Humanism can make up the same 'rules' that Religion uses. Easily.

Well, if it's so easy why doesn't it then? If Secular Humanism can easily give life universal positive meaning and provide a good moral code with far reaching ethical standards that will make it even Nihilist accept worthy, then I urge them to do it.

[IndiReloaded]

Mish *humans* were the ones who came up with the laws from the bible. Humans. Not a god.

The whole god lie was thrown in as a way to control the masses. Which, at the time were largely ignorant and uneducated. It was *expedient* to do so.

Times have changed. The common person has access to more resources and education than ever before in history. This will naturally lead them to question the *reasons* for those belief systems. I happen to think this is a good thing. I am confident that humans can be persuaded, RATIONALLY, that many of those things we would commonly called 'Christian ethics' are a good thing. While I'm not well-read on all things Religious, sounds like the Jews, Buddhists and others have got some good points to. But on their own merits. The whole 'God' part of the argument can just be dropped as unnecessary and irrelevant. Its simply a dinosaur to the whole philosophy, like one's appendix. Outgrown its usefulness.

[IndiReloaded]

If Secular Humanism can easily give life universal positive meaning and provide a good moral code with far reaching ethical standards that will make it even Nihilist accept worthy, then I urge them to do it.

Why are you so focussed on nihilism, Mish? There are all kinds of crazy humans out there. No single philosophy, even a perfect one, will ever satisfy all mind sets. You are very naive to think so.

Whatever philosophy(ies) arise, they should at least be honest. And I would have much more respect for even something like nihilism, which is at least self-consistent, than any religion currently out there. Even ones like Buddhism don't make the grade for me. I think they have some good concepts, but they still expect followers to suspend disbelief about things like karma and rebirth. No proof, no reason = BS philosophy. Plus, their goal isn't really to enlighten humanity, its to gain members to build temples. Just like every other organized religion out there.

The day I read about an atheist temple, is the day I stop using the term to describe myself.

[Mish]

I am confident that humans can be persuaded, RATIONALLY, that many of those things we would commonly called 'Christian ethics' are a good thing.

I will be glad to see that happen. But I would rather wait until that happens and not accept something inferior.

While I'm not well-read on all things Religious, sounds like the Jews, Buddhists and others have got some good points to. But on their own merits. The whole 'God' part of the argument can just be dropped as unnecessary and irrelevant. Its simply a dinosaur to the whole philosophy, like one's appendix. Outgrown its usefulness.

Personally I believe that the God part is not irrelevant if it's viewed as an abstract which fulfills the need to have absolute good that people should strive towards. An example of what absolute good is on which betterment of oneself and humanity you mentioned before could be modeled.

[IndiReloaded]

Personally I believe that the God part is not irrelevant if it's viewed as an abstract which fulfills the need to have absolute good that people should strive towards. An example of what absolute good is on which betterment of oneself and humanity you mentioned before could be modeled.

Well, I could agree with this. BUT it would have to be made absolutely clear that this Ideal you describe is sourced from Human ideals and thought. Not that there is some kind of Supreme Being watching over everyone, ready to strike them down if they misstep. Belief in a personal god like this is simply not logical. No proof.

The gods can either take away evil from the world and will
not, or, being willing to do so cannot…. If they have the will
to remove evil and cannot, then they are not omnipotent. If
they can but will not, then they are not benevolent. If they
are neither willing nor able, they are neither omnipotent
nor benevolent.

Epicurus, 300 BC

[Mish]

Why are you so focussed on nihilism, Mish?

Because it supports chaos and state of anomie as a necessary alternative to our current system. And because I have an evidence based suspicion that Atheism in it's purest form is Nihilistic, besides some of the fine dressing.

Whatever philosophy(ies) arise, they should at least be honest.

I think honesty is not the only requirement though. For example I would always hope for and support eradication of Nazi ideology and philosophy no matter how honest it was.

And I would have much more respect for even something like nihilism, which is at least self-consistent, than any religion currently out there.

That's scary^

[khyyy]

Simple case, religious people are not rational thinkers. It's not a stereotype, it's simple fact. You grow up listening to such tainted information that you don't even understand how to think about certain topics rationally. Simply because rational thought is something that not only isn't taught to people with religious belief but it's in fact frowned upon. A great man Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) once said "A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows." It's a great quote because well it's 100% truth. If you are currently in religious study you can't think rationally because rational thought will lead you into questioning your beliefs, without a shout of a doubt this will happen, you will read through the bible, read through everything your told and think "Wait... what the ****? This sounds like a bad movie with Lindsey Lohan and Ben Affleck."

You can try and defend your beliefs all you want, but if you were to actually go back and read all the comments you have made in this thread while having an open mind, you would realize most of what your saying sounds retarded (not a personal attack just don't have a better word to use for "believers" defenses). I would like you to do me a favor, download/buy/netflix the movie Religilous a documentary by Bill Maher. It's a wonderful documentary, at a certain point in the film, he has a Vatican priest (or something to the effect of a priest/bishop etc.) actually admitting that the bible and most of religion is just fun fairy tales that were taken to literally. There is also a lot of other good information in the movie, you will notice that every single time he sits down with a man of faith type guy and starts talking to him, they all have the exact same argument and end up getting upset with him and walking out because they feel they are being attacked. They aren't obviously, but you are attacking this belief they have that they can't explain and after a good 5 minutes of debate with them they get angry and uncomfortable because they can't describe certain things with nothing other than "God works in mysterious ways" which is one of the biggest bullshit quotes of all time.

[Mish]

You can try and defend your beliefs all you want, but if you were to actually go back and read all the comments you have made in this thread while having an open mind, you would realize most of what your saying sounds retarded (not a personal attack just don't have a better word to use for "believers" defenses).

Not a personal attack, but you sound retarded by attacking most of what I say without quoting the alleged "retarded content". How about you do ME a favour and quote your grievance so we can discuss it?

[Lite]

I’ve noticed quite a number of people/scientists have spent a lot of energy talking about how religion is terrible and how God doesn’t exist. Now I’m an open minded person and with the right logical argument (which I have yet to see) I can be swayed either way but I have to admit I’m more inclined to believe. Religion has been used as a controlling tool but that doesn’t mean God doesn’t exist it just means humans have been assholes and have used God as a fear tactic to get what they want. it’s not a justified argument to say God doesn’t exist based on how some humans have interpreted the stories.

There are many stories told in various religions which are similar-some people think this discredits religion and God altogether but tbh this makes the stories even more true-different religions-different character names but same story…spooky.

Does any one have a good logical argument as to why it’s not logical to believe in God? (without using what humans have interpreted from the stories)

Uhm, you mean because Christianity in general adapted the local customs and legends in order to preach the gospel. Thus why Jesus is suddenly born near Yuletide instead of during the summer. You can celebrate it at the same time others are celebrating their religious date, and not be viewed as an outsider. Then you have 3 major religions (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) based upon the old testament of the bible. There are even theories that ideals and concepts from Roman gods were integrated into Christianity to make it more palitable to the mainstream and increase conversion rates.

I don't know if I believe in God. I would like to, but so far what I see is a lot of religions re-interpreting things, creating hatred, and feeding intolerance.

I'm not anti God, I'm anti organised religion. If you are incapable of looking at things presented to you in an educated manner, and evaluating for yourself what you do and do not believe, I think you're a moron.

I was raised a by a devoutely Catholic mother. You know what I learned by it? Rich people send their kids to private catholic schools, and the kids drink, and party, and do drugs, and take absolutely no responsibility for their actions. That's what I learned... And that unless you are either A) Good at sports, or B) rich, you cannot afford to attend those schools.