The God Illusion?

[Junket]

My reply is people might be able to be taught that, but not in their current form. Because you can't assign meaning and purpose to something that inherently does not posses it. Not until Atheism promotes a universal reason why life has a positive meaning and purpose and the reason why morals must be followed which will justify why these values must be taught.

Yes you can.

People assign purpose and meaning to their own lives as they see fit on a daily basis.

People practice non-religious traditions simply because they were taught them and retained positive memories from them.

Furthermore, you don't go from horse drawn carts, straight to super sonic jets. It progresses and those horse drawn carts become obsolete.

I obliterated your argument.

[Mish]

Yes you can.

People assign purpose and meaning to their own lives as they see fit on a daily basis.

That purpose and meaning people assign to their own lives on the daily basis exists outside of what's provable by scientific method which makes them not real Atheists. It makes them believers in "something unprovable".

[IndiReloaded]

Mish. What is the definition of atheism, please? Any standard dictionary reference will do.

[Junket]

That purpose and meaning people assign to their own lives on the daily basis exists outside of what's provable by scientific method which makes them not real Atheists. It makes them believers in "something unprovable".

So?

And you're not a real Australian.

[khyyy]

Mish. What is the definition of atheism, please? Any standard dictionary reference will do.

From Wikipedia...

"Atheism can be either the rejection of theism,[1] or the position that deities do not exist.[2] In the broadest sense, it is the absence of belief in the existence of deities."

[Mish]

Mish. What is the definition of atheism, please? Any standard dictionary reference will do.

Just to expand on that Wiki definition khyyy posted


Atheism can be either the rejection of theism,[1] or the position that deities do not exist.[2] In the broadest sense, it is the absence of belief in the existence of deities.[3] Atheism tends towards skepticism regarding supernatural claims, citing a lack of empirical evidence. Common rationales include the problem of evil, the argument from inconsistent revelations, and the argument from nonbelief. Other arguments for atheism range from the philosophical to the social to the historical.

With respect to the range of phenomena being rejected, atheism may counter anything from the existence of a deity, to the existence of any spiritual, supernatural, or transcendental concepts, such as those of Hinduism and Buddhism.

Here is another dictionary definition

Atheism, however, casts a wider net and rejects all belief in “spiritual beings,” and to the extent that belief in spiritual beings is definitive of what it means for a system to be religious, atheism rejects religion. So atheism is not only a rejection of the central conceptions of Judeo-Christianity and Islām, it is, as well, a rejection of the religious beliefs of such African religions as that of the Dinka and the Nuer, of the anthropomorphic gods of classical Greece and Rome, and of the transcendental conceptions of Hinduism and Buddhism. Generally atheism is a denial of God or of the gods, and if religion is defined in terms of belief in spiritual beings, then atheism is the rejection of all religious belief. It is necessary, however, if a tolerably adequate understanding of atheism is to be achieved, to give a reading to “rejection of religious belief” and to come to realize how the characterization of atheism as the denial of God or the gods is inadequate.

[url]http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/40634/atheism[/url]

Modern Atheism increasingly relies on scientific method for acceptance of facts which it uses as a basis standing point in disproving claims of others which are scientifically unsupported. Meaning that in it's purest form Atheism denies existence of anything that can not be proven using the scientific method. For example, if you are a follower of Scientology (a belief which does not support existence of deities) you are not a true atheist.

Atheism is a byproduct of Skepticism, you can argue the semantics if you like, but this is what Atheism really is.

[IndiReloaded]

From Wikipedia...

"Atheism can be either the rejection of theism,[1] or the position that deities do not exist.[2] In the broadest sense, it is the absence of belief in the existence of deities."

Thank you, khyyy. This^ is the standard definition. A disbelief/rejection of theism.

A = without, Theism = belief in god(s).

Now, if you please, either one. The standard definition of 'nihilist'?

[Mish]

Thank you, khyyy. This^ is the standard definition. A disbelief/rejection of theism.

A = without, Theism = belief in god(s).

Now, if you please, either one. The standard definition of 'nihilist'?

Indi, I just explained to you that this is an incomplete definition of Atheism giving you reference points from a dictionary in respect to the range of phenomena being rejected that Atheism covers.

Did you read what I just posted?


If you are asking me the question "why do I think there is a link between Nihilism and Atheism?", then I will tell you. Both Nihilism and Atheism rely on Scientific method and empirical evidence for justification of what is real, while denying everything outside of that evidence. Nihilism is just an extension of Atheism showing where over reliance on scientific method ultimately leads. I am only telling you this because I am hoping that you are actually trying to understand where I am coming from and instead of dismissing my point of view in favour of yours.

[IndiReloaded]

I am still waiting, Mish. The standard definition of Nihilist, please?

BTW, the information you provided re: atheist was not a definition. It was an encyclopedia entry, someones interpretation of the term. A definition, in its purest sense, describes the *origin* of the word, and a short, concise definition, such as was given.

The one that was given by khyyy IS the standard one. Too bad if you don't like it.

Here's another, from Dictionary.com

a⋅the⋅ism
  /ˈeɪθiˌɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ey-thee-iz-uhm] Show IPA
Use atheism in a Sentence
–noun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
Origin:
1580–90; < Gk áthe(os) godless + -ism

And from Oxford dictionary:
atheism

/aythi-iz’m/

• noun the belief that God does not exist.

— DERIVATIVES atheist noun atheistic adjective atheistical adjective.

— ORIGIN from Greek a- ‘without’ + theos ‘god’.

Now: the definition of Nihilism?

[Junket]

Mish, it's okay to admit you're wrong.

[IndiReloaded]

I don't think that Mish will post the definition, so I will do it:

nihilism

/nihiliz’m/

• noun 1 the rejection of all religious and moral principles. 2 Philosophy extreme scepticism, maintaining that nothing has a real existence.

Notice that atheism doesn't reject *everything*, just the need to invoke a god(s) or higher power.

Mish, I understand your argument, and its bunk. The problem with your argument is that, you want to believe nihilism is an extension of atheism (it isn't, but let's take that path for fun), which means atheism is dangerous & should therefore be rejected.

Your Venn diagram would look like nihilism being encompassed by a larger atheist bubble, right? "All nihilists are atheist" (but not all atheists are nihilist). Still dangerous, tho, right?

So. Lets have a look at the venn diagram religion then.

This Venn diagram would look like religious fundamentalists being encompassed by a larger Religion bubble, right? "All fundamentalists are religious" (but not all religious are fundamentalists).

Hmmm. Then, given how crazy those religious fundamentalists are, blowing things up and stuff, we should be prepared to reject all religion, yes?

I rest my case. Your thinking is biased, Mish. Not at all reasonable. Sorry.

[Mish]

Notice that atheism doesn't reject *everything*, just the need to invoke a god(s) or higher power.

Indi, as I said before your definition of Atheism is over simplified and incomplete. Deny my references if it makes you feel better. I don't believe for a second that Richard Dawkins would accept the existence of fairies and I have never met an Atheist that would accept Scientology and its dogma even though it doesn't invoke God(s).

Mish, I understand your argument, and its bunk. The problem with your argument is that, you want to believe nihilism is an extension of atheism

If only that was true. The problem is that it IS an extension of Atheism. You just don't want to believe it because it puts Atheism in a negative light.

Hmmm. Then, given how crazy those religious fundamentalists are, blowing things up and stuff, we should be prepared to reject all religion, yes?

Indi, like I said before, I am not in favour of either one in their current forms, but I prefer living in a society that gives life positive meaning and purpose so naturally I prefer Religion which gives life positive meaning to Atheism which doesn't.


Is there anything else you would like me to explain?

[Gribble]

An atheist does not believe in a supreme being. An atheist may, however, believe in the tooth faerie, gnomish cobblers, pocket-hippos, or whatever else he or she chooses.

Just because one does not believe in god does not mean one is not a lunatic. The odds are slightly better, but it ain't a given.

[khyyy]

Mish you have been putting up this same argument for the last 7 pages of your thread. You keep insisting that you "prefer living in a society that gives life positive meaning and purpose." You feel that the proper choice for that is religion because it is impossible for this to exist with anything but religion. You say this despite the fact you a MULTIPLE not one but multiple atheists sitting here telling you that we live lives of positive meaning and purpose, to the extent of if anything? More positive meaning and purpose than someone with religion because the only difference between us two on that subject? Is we gain our personal meaning and purpose from self gain, rather than fear of eternal damnation which is where your "meaning and purpose" comes from as a god fearing person; and do not even try to deny this fact because any argument you have for it will be complete bs. The entire basis and root of religion is based around fear for ones afterlife and that is it... if you have lost fear for being damned to hell, than you have lost your will and belief in your God it's that simple and there is no way that can be debated. Notice the term god fearing, a term that is commonly use to refer to those of a religious background... why? Because that's all it is, belief in religion is belief that god will smite you for your wrong doings.

So again, we get the exact same, if not more purpose, happiness, worth and positive meaning as you do if not more. Why? Because we get these feelings on our own time and we get them because we want them not because we will be damned forever in the afterlife if we don't have them.

[Mish]

An atheist does not believe in a supreme being. An atheist may, however, believe in the tooth faerie, gnomish cobblers, pocket-hippos, or whatever else he or she chooses.

That's not a complete definition according to definitions of Atheism I read (and posted). If you look for a complete definition of Atheism (more than just simplified two lines) you will find that Atheism covers a much broader range than just denying existence of a supreme being.

For example, I will give you a two line definition of Religion from the same site

religion

• noun 1 the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. 2 a particular system of faith and worship. 3 a pursuit or interest followed with devotion.

[url]http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/orexxligion?view=uk[/url]

This definition automatically excludes a number of Religions as being Religions and doesn't cover the following facts:

1. Clifford Geertz's definition of religion as a "cultural system" was dominant for most of the 20th century and continues to be widely accepted today.
2. Sociologists and anthropologists tend to see religion as an abstract set of ideas, values, or experiences developed as part of a cultural matrix. For example, in Lindbeck's Nature of Doctrine, religion does not refer to belief in "God" or a transcendent Absolute. Instead, Lindbeck defines religion as, "a kind of cultural and/or linguistic framework or medium that shapes the entirety of life and thought
3. A religion is an organized approach to human spirituality which usually encompasses a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices, often with a supernatural or transcendent quality
4. It may focus on specific supernatural, metaphysical, and moral claims about reality (the cosmos and human nature) which may yield a set of religious laws, ethics, and a particular lifestyle.

But you wouldn't know the above if you cheated and simplified the definition into two lines