The God Illusion?

[Junket]

That's not a complete definition according to definitions of Atheism I read (and posted).

What are you even arguing?

Do you even know anymore?

[IndiReloaded]

I notice, Mish, that you completely ignored my venn diagram point.

To be self-consistent, you would need to reject religion just as readily as you reject atheism b/c relig fundamentalists is a subset of religion.

Dawkins is not a nihilist. He believes in love, for example. As do most atheists. The reason we don't require scientific proof is because we understand its a conceptual, HUMAN ideal.

The only thing atheists reject is belief in a supernatural being that guides our life. Every definition ONLY says this, even the ones you posted. Nowhere, not even your definitions, say that atheists reject all values and morals (which a nihilist does do).

Again, atheist does not = nihilist. Not any more than religious = crazy fundamentalist.

Here's a link, this guy says it about as well as I can:

[url]http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismatheistsbeliefs/a/BelieveNothing.htm[/url]

[IndiReloaded]

Things atheists believe in:

Compassion, charity, truth, justice, democracy, empathy, kindness, freeedom, fidelity, commitment, the scientific method, peace, love, dignity of humanity, joy, laughter, art, love.

A nihilist would say that none of these things matter. At the end of all things, the universe explodes and none of it will have meant anything.

[khyyy]

Just want to extend the idea a slight amount further than what Indi stated. Those ideals of compassion, truth, justice, fidelity, commitment etc. I have a feeling Mish you will try to defend it saying 'Well that's simply because religion has given you all these ideals'. Realize before trying to make said argument (as I have heard it from religious friends of mine). That no that is in fact not true, Religion was something manufactured by man to explain the unexplainable (what we would now call Science...) there for via extension of this rule, man also created those rules.

What I mean by this is for the average human being, so long as there isn't something wrong with your brain chemistry things like, don't murder or rob, the feelings of love, joy, etc. are all natural chemical reactions in your brain. They are something that is physically part of our evolution. You could raise a brand new child and never once tell him or let him here that murder and stealing are wrong and guess what? He would probably never even think twice about it, naturally he would simply not perform those actions.

[Junket]

A nihilist would say that none of these things matter. At the end of all things, the universe explodes and none of it will have meant anything.

This is all true, but f*ck it, we might as well enjoy ourselves.

[IndiReloaded]

Just want to extend the idea a slight amount further than what Indi stated. Those ideals of compassion, truth, justice, fidelity, commitment etc. I have a feeling Mish you will try to defend it saying 'Well that's simply because religion has given you all these ideals'. Realize before trying to make said argument (as I have heard it from religious friends of mine). That no that is in fact not true, Religion was something manufactured by man to explain the unexplainable (what we would now call Science...) there for via extension of this rule, man also created those rules.

Actually, khyyy, I wouldn't disagree with that statement (that I bolded). All the ideals of religion come from HUMAN thought. As I stated previously (and Lite also said), Religion just added the whole God lie as a way to get the uneducated masses to buy into the system. But the time of needing the lie has passed. The masses are not ignorant, or at least they have no excuse to be. They can think and choose for themselves.

I don't have any problem whatsoever with most 'Christian Ideals' (and those of other religions). A lot of it is good, practical stuff, or was at the time in history they were recorded.

All I say, and what most atheists say, is that there is no need to invoke a supernatural being as a *reason* to follow those principles. Humans have many good ideas, we should take credit for them. Religion takes away the pride and confidence that humans should have about their own ability to come up with these ideals and govern ourselves. Take responsibility for our own future and stop expecting that someone else will either punish us if we misstep or guide us if we fail. WE are the god(s) to whom we pray, nothing and noone else is responsible for our lives except that which WEchoose.

Its really that simple.

[IndiReloaded]

This is all true, but f*ck it, we might as well enjoy ourselves.

I think Nihilism is a particularly useless philosophy. I don't know anyone who I would consider a nihilist, tho. Certainly none of the many atheists I know would fall under that description.

[khyyy]

Indi that's actually what I was saying... in the bolded statement that was a typo, remove religion and input God. I was trying to say pretty much what you wrote. The bible and all other religious doctrines try to state that a "God" told the writers of these sci-fi novels what was to be moral or immoral. However, it was simply someone stating the obvious and using "God" as a power figure to put that in to play. While also somehow making enough loop holes in the system that so long as your killing in the "name of God" then it's completely okay to do so and in no way is an immoral act.

[khyyy]

A nihilist? Would probably be someone like a Neo-Nazi or someone to that effect. Or maybe... just maybe the Joker from Batman!

[Gribble]

This is all true, but f*ck it, we might as well enjoy ourselves.

That's exactly how I look at it. And if everyone was utterly selfish and horrible no one would enjoy themselves. Therefore, in the interest of promoting pleasure and enjoyment it is important to avoid harming people--within reason. You could always be on the receiving end yourself.

[Lipp]

Religions would be fine if they shrugged off the divine bits of it and simply made it a school of thought that people choose to follow.

But alas, no.

[ecojeanne]

indi just hit a very good point and the point that is worth discussing as fact. humans collectively look to someone/people to lead, to take over, to tell them what to do. humans collectively are not independent. people go thru life searching for their other half, people go thru life searching for ways to keep scarcity of 'things' to a minimum and yes i believe religion was created based upon these needs the human being has. it controlled them-fine. some madmen used it-not disagreeing. what i think is good is that there are some people who can be independent-fine. what is true tho is that humans collectively enjoy being dumb and closing their eyes to live in a bubble. if that bubble creates a few good things like compassion, love and healing both physically and mentally for others and themselves, then i'm all for it. i don't believe humans have the ability to change right now-(too many innate negative characteristics), maybe sometime in the future they may come to their senses and realize that we are all independent and don't need a rulebook or people to rely on, but people aren't ready yet.

there is still so much we don't know and may never know. i have my own belief that satisfies what *i* need.

i have dealt with a few who face death and i do know believing in something when facing death is needed and is helpful beyond any other concept.

[IndiReloaded]

what is true tho is that humans collectively enjoy being dumb and closing their eyes to live in a bubble.

I agree with pretty much all you said, except this Eco^. I don't believe humans enjoy it, and I don't believe its inherent to our nature. Humans are *taught* this. Learned helplessness.

But, there are strong biological arguments for what you say, so I can see your point. I think Mish would agree with you, that most humans seem to "need" something greater than themselves to believe in. Apes show definite dependence on a leader (alphas, silverbacks) in their social structure.

I happen to believe we are more than monkeys with sticks. Or, at least, we are capable of evolving beyond our basic nature. But, at this point, we are discussing belief, so there is really no way to reconcile our positions.

Good to see you posting again in YOUR thread, doll.

[Junket]

A nihilist? Would probably be someone like a Neo-Nazi or someone to that effect. Or maybe... just maybe the Joker from Batman!

A neo-nazi?

Do you know anything about white supremacists?

[ecojeanne]

I don't believe humans enjoy it, and I don't believe its inherent to our nature. Humans are *taught* this. Learned helplessness.

But, there are strong biological arguments for what you say, so I can see your point. I think Mish would agree with you, that most humans seem to "need" something greater than themselves to believe in. Apes show definite dependence on a leader (alphas, silverbacks) in their social structure.

I happen to believe we are more than monkeys with sticks. Or, at least, we are capable of evolving beyond our basic nature. But, at this point, we are discussing belief, so there is really no way to reconcile our positions.

Good to see you posting again in YOUR thread, doll.

thanks, religious threads..i shudda known it would carry on

anyway i think maybe yes it's learned to an extent (with all the violence and over stimulation we are exposed to) but i somehow feel it's another innate characteristic humans have; to suppress the truths/negatives in favor of a more peaceful happy existence. people find it hard and fear the truth/or what some might call the truth and society set up helps. ultimately humans have a good and bad side and religion imo was set up to control the bad side. but what wasn't taken into account was the people running the show also had a bad side and so religion got twisted and so now that is why some people are beginning to reject it. it still doesn’t mean humans don't need something to keep them on the straight and narrow. look at the state of the world, it’s getting worse by the day. at least when some people were following the rules set up in religion the bad side of human behavior was suppressed. I would prefer a world without violence and manipulation but so far history shows that ain’t going away for a while yet

just my thoughts