Human Trash

[Junket]

These are not lazy people mind you. Both parents always work crazy hours at hard back breaking jobs because all they're working with is a GED or high school education.

Their education isn't what's holding them back, it's the children.

[dewilliams2]

Their education isn't what's holding them back, it's the children.

Are you really gonna start that education discussion again?

[Junket]

Are you really gonna start that education discussion again?

My bad, I wouldn't want to offend the OP by derailing their thread for my own purposes.

[Gigabitch]

My bad, I wouldn't want to offend the OP by derailing their thread for my own purposes.

You don't want to do that. I hear he's cranky and he might put a military-issue boot up you ass.

[dewilliams2]

Well we already did it in this same thread once...go back a few pages...it'll be like reliving old memories and you'll recall everybody's stance on education.

[Junket]

Well we already did it in this same thread once...go back a few pages...it'll be like reliving old memories and you'll recall everybody's stance on education.

I just spent my weekend reminiscing.

It was grand.

In any case, my point was, if they didn't have so many kids they could go ahead and get themselves a better education with ease.

They shot themselves in the foot with their inability to regulate their loins.

Do you have any desire to argue my statements?

[dewilliams2]

Well perhaps the reason why they have so many kids is because their level of education (not just formally but education of life) is such that is it not conducive to them considering any other options such as using contraceptives or not have children.

So which came first, the chicken or the egg?

The lack of education or the children keeping them from pursuing an education?

That is why previously I referred to it as a cyclical process I have witnessed it first hand in my extended family. I have an aunt who got knocked up at 17, her daughter at 15 then her daughter at 16....they are very good at breeding and they are simply ignorant whores....it is a generational cyclical process starting with my aunt....she got knocked up and rode the welfare wagon and that is what she taught her daughter and granddaughter to do.

Like I said it is hard to say which comes first lack of knowledge or children depriving their parents of the ability to obtain the knowledge. But then I also know that there are those people out there who have accidents and still pursue their education so if I were a betting man I would put my money on ignorance and lack of education coupled with the cyclical tradition in families that are truly at root of the problem.

[Junket]

I was specifically responding to Laila's comment in that they were hard workers but trying to make due with "only" a high school diploma or GED. My point is that it has less to do with their level of education at this point.

Have enough children and even a PhD will struggle.

You don't need a bachelor's to understand that the more children you make, the more money you need to make as well.

There are simply people that choose to ignore these facts.

Though I will agree with you that much of it is cultural.

Sick and sad that there are such self destructive sub cultures that still exist within our society, especially considering how free information is nowadays.

[dewilliams2]

I still maintain the belief that it is harder to make it with a high school diploma or GED than it is a college degree or certification from a technical school/apprenticeship.

Certainly it can be done but there are far more opportunities open to you the more papers you have saying you can do things.

Because there are a lot of things I can do but I'm not certified to do them. My degrees are in ancient history and classic cultures but I work with exotic animals. The only reason I do is because I was lucky enough to stumble into my position through a contact of my mother.

So I have had extensive on the job training and know about as much about animals as somebody who has gone to school for zoology or veterinary medicine after 8 years but its hard to walk into another zoo and say "yea I can do that"...they will say "where are your papers saying you can do that because that guy over there has papers?"

My mom has a GED...she makes 9.00 an hour after 12 years or running a register at Lowe's. Now she has had opportunities to move into management but she knows that management at Lowe's is a revolving door and they get new ones about every 2 years so it makes more sense in terms of job security to stay a cashier. So while the opportunity has been there for her to make more money it is at the cost of job security and even then it isn't the best of wages.

[Junket]

I'm not sure what you gauge as "hard" or "easy".

School is what I would consider "hard", not only hard, but costly as well.

I'm a bit amazed at how you refer to technical schools and apprenticeships.

How long does it take to get your average bachelor degree?

4 years.

How long does it take to complete your average formal apprenticeship program?

3-5 years.

Not only that, but there are magnitude of opportunities for those that complete a trade apprenticeship.

Trust me, there are many different kinds of electricians, many different kinds of plumbers, many different kinds of refrigerant techs, various kind of carpenters. Some choose to ride with what they learned in their apprenticeship, while others may learn to specialize, or further expand into engineering. Like I've mentioned before, the trades have be severely underrated as viable career options.

I'm sure there are many doors open to those who manage to acquire a bachelor's degree, but do they guarantee you'll be moving up more than you'll be moving side ways? Of course not, there's no guarantee, although I believe the highschools and colleges like to paint that kind of picture.

Also, as you've said, yes, the paper is important, but we both know that just because you got that paper, doesn't mean you'll be successful, nor does it bar you from becoming successful in areas where you lack official credentials.

[dewilliams2]

Well ya totally misread the sentence..."than" was not separating college degrees and technical certification or apprenticeships....it was separating those things from a GED and high school diploma...so ya basically typed a few paragraphs arguing with me about something I didn't say.

Although I don't know where your hearing it takes 3-5 years to get a technical degree or go through an apprenticeship program. Most are more like 1-3 and the rest is on the job training....where did you hear 5 at. An many certifications you don' t have to go to school for as long as you can pass the tests. My dad is both a licensed electrician and ASE certified mechanic but went to technical school for neither....but he obtained all that knowledge growing up on a farm and his dad died when he was 10 so he had to learn how to fix things. Instead of hiring somebody to do it my grandma would just buy him a book on the topic....I've yet to come across something he can't fix.

But college degrees and technical certifications are what I consider skilled labor...its easier to find work when you are skilled labor....high school diploma or GED doesn't make you skilled labor.

[Junket]

The Union electrical apprenticeship is 4-5 years.

The Associated Builders and Contractors apprenticeship is also 4 years.

Also, I knew a guy who had a degree in electrical engineering from college, and a state license to do electrical work, but couldn't bend pipe for his life, and knew little to nothing about most commercial work.

He had the paper, that's for sure, but that was about it.

Oh, and yeah, I misread what you wrote, I was posting while I fixed some dinner.

Look it up on-line though, I'm reading oregon's apprenticeship requirements and their carpenters are set for 4 years, their brick layers 3, I haven't seen any under 3 so far.

[dewilliams2]

Well Indiana is apparently a lot easier because most take 1-3 years and generally its only about a year in class and the rest of the time is spent getting hands on experience. I have several friends who have done this and none of them have had to go for 4-5 years.

[Junket]

Well Indiana is apparently a lot easier because most take 1-3 years and generally its only about a year in class and the rest of the time is spent getting hands on experience. I have several friends who have done this and none of them have had to go for 4-5 years.

Apprenticeships vary according to states, but Union locals tend to keep similar requirements because the purpose is to create a standard.

I've honestly never heard of an electrical apprenticeship lasting any fewer years than 4.

I'm wondering if you're not being misled by your consorts who are going through a much less formal apprenticeship.

Like I said, there are many kinds of electricians. Romex jockeys (mainly new residential construction) may never bother going to school, they'll work a year and think they're expert electricians, they'll study for the NEC codebook test and get their contractor's license, but that doesn't mean they're a well rounded electrician. I've seen guys that have done residential all their life, and they're good at it, real fast. But put a bender in their hand and ask them to bend a saddle and they'll fumble. Likewise, I know guys who have ran pipe all their life, but can't figure out how to wire up a 3-way switch.

Once again, I would be surprised if your friends went through a formal apprenticeship through the Union or ABC, especially considering you don't live in a right-to-work state.

[dewilliams2]

I'm honestly not thinking of electricians at all. My two friends I'm thinking of, one is a brick layer and the other is a mechanic. The brick layer did all of his learning in the field. The mechanic went to school for about a year and the rest was done in the field training.

Honestly though mechanics aren't making great money anymore. My dad was making 22.00 an hour but because of the economy lost his job and now works for the state making 14.00 and hour. He was supposed to get a 4.00 an hour raise after his first year but he works for the State and Mitch Daniels froze all state employee wages before his first year was up. I mean 14.00 an hour isn't that bad but considering he has 30 years of experience and was making 22.00 an hour for years...its a huge pay cut. The market is just so over saturated with mechanics right now its hard to find a job.

Same thing with the construction industry. My uncle and cousin are pipe fitters and they have had to travel all over looking for work and there have been times they have been out of work for awhile. The economy just sucks right now so even if you do have a skill it doesn't mean your finding work.

But truly I wouldn't advise anybody to go into being a mechanic...they are a dime a dozen.

The only reason my dad has better luck finding a job is because he is an ASE certified master mechanic and certified heavy truck mechanic. Plus he worked at Pepsi for years and transferred over to work on their machines to...like I said there isn't much he can't fix.

Pepsi paid for him to get certified in so much stuff...he is even certified to work with nuclear waste, can drive a train...actually anything except a plane or helicopter. Every so many years he has to go take another test and thats about it.

But if it wasn't for all of that he would probably still be looking for work....my point is...don't be a mechanic kids...don't believe the commercials that you get to work on awesome cars and make lots of money...you'll make ok money and generally work on rusted pieces of shit.