Apologists for Evil

[IndiReloaded]

What I am saying is: not everything is what it appears to be. That should be very obvious from my posts.

An obvious statement and not very useful by way of solution, Ygg. You would agree, there is such a thing as 'context' in these situations, then?

Maybe you should explain the distinction b/t my point and the one you are trying to make?

[Yggdrasil]

An obvious statement and not very useful by way of solution, Ygg. You would agree, there is such a thing as 'context' in these situations, then?

Maybe you should explain the distinction b/t my point and the one you are trying to make?

*shakes head*

Indi, you're a smart person, you know exactly what I am saying.

Don't play this 'I have no clue what you are talking about' game with me.

Sometimes, ones stuborness, admirable as it is, prevents one from being more open. The world isn't static. Neither should a person be.

I'll make my point one last time:

DO NO USE STEREOTYPES IN THESE KIND OF DISCUSSIONS.

[ecojeanne]

My point, Eco, is that people like us aren't space aliens seeded among the more average humans. People like you seem to think its all BS. Its not. We just work hard and know what we want. You can too, but not with your current mindset.

then why are you telling me i'm judging you....you in fact decided that. i never mentioned any such thing until you started on about how i should emulate to be like you. fairly presumptuous about how important is what you do. there are plenty of wealthy people that 'do things' that do jack shit, it's all for ego, and you seem fairly attached to yours, jus' sayin'

i'm glad you are at least doing something whatever it is and hopefully it actually does do jack shit unlike many out there that get credit for something that does fck all.

[little pingoin]

Maybe I missed a post or two (there have been a lot of them), but I don't think there was any stereotyping here.

The point was drawn that the white hoods and swastikas are largely known to stand for discrimination, hatred and violence. They're objects, like the burqa, that some group of schmucks made stand for something awful.

The fact that the swastika originated as a peaceful symbol doesn't offer much in the way of condolences to Jewish families affected by the Holocaust.

[IndiReloaded]

You know, Ygg, I have a very hard time taking seriously anyone who needs to 'yell' to make their point.

Eco, I could search for posts where you called me arrogant, 'machine' and other things. Where YOU were the instigator, I should point out. They are there, look for them. I don't care, except to point out your error saying you haven't.

fairly presumptuous about how important is what you do. there are plenty of wealthy people that 'do things' that do jack shit, it's all for ego, and you seem fairly attached to yours, jus' sayin'

As opposed to not wealthy people who don't do 'jack shit'? LOL, Eco, you are a piece of work.

Sorry, where did I state an importance value to what I said? Except to point out that I happen to act consistently w/my comments. Something you seem to have difficulty with.

Anyway, my point is made. You aren't so dense you don't see it. Think I'll sign off for the pm.

[ecojeanne]

You know, Ygg, I have a very hard time taking seriously anyone who needs to 'yell' to make their point.

Eco, I could search for posts where you called me arrogant, 'machine' and other things. Where YOU were the instigator, I should point out. They are there, look for them. I don't care, except to point out your error saying you haven't.



As opposed to not wealthy people who don't do 'jack shit'? LOL, Eco, you are a piece of work.

Sorry, where did I state an importance value to what I said? Except to point out that I happen to act consistently w/my comments. Something you seem to have difficulty with.

Anyway, my point is made. You aren't so dense you don't see it. Think I'll sign off for the pm.

LOL the point is i didn't call you arrogant here, you assumed. maybe due to some insecurity, not sure why really, it didn't make any sense since i wasn't judging you, i was impressed until all the BS that followed...ego prevails as does no sense to any of your points....as per usual

[IndiReloaded]

Wow Eco, reading your posts is what I'd imagine conversing with a parrot would be like. Do you even know how to analyze the source of the things you produce? I hear an... echo, Eco. I guess its a good thing, my points do seem to be going in, tho the route is a bit circuitous.

LOL.

[ecojeanne]

^^^ DANCE PUPPET DANCE! lol

[Yggdrasil]

You know, Ygg, I have a very hard time taking seriously anyone who needs to 'yell' to make their point.

Emphasizing =/= yelling.

It's obvious after stating 2 times the exact same thing, that I have to emphasize or make what I type it stand out in such way that it's no longer open to misinterpretation to even the most dense of people.

If that appears as yelling to you (and yes I know CAPS are considered yelling on the net) then, again, that's your perception of it.

Perception =/= intent.

Oh btw, Eco knows exactly which strings to pull to get you going

Cheers, don't let the bedbugs bite you.

[Yggdrasil]

The point of it is not to reveal your face/body while you're in public. Women are expected to wear it because as you and i both know how guys are and Islam you should only be sexually visible to your man...If they see a girl that shows a lot of skin, some guys don't just imagine, some guys take things into their own hands.

It IS to prevent men from becoming aroused. The orthodox jewish women have similar restrictions. My rabbi (female) told me they had to be covered down to the wrist because a bent arm looks like an ass, and the men would get aroused.

Talk about total lack of self control if women have to hide their skin from men or they'll get sexualy assaulted.

[Mish]

So, no Mish, the sentence: there is no doubt in anyone's mind that they are symbols of execution and racial hatred, just doesn't fly here.

I was talking about the black inverted swastikas (usually on white and red background) and klan hoods with KKK symbols. There is no doubt in anyone's mind what they represent.

[Mish]

The burqa, in and of itself, is a harmless object. Cloth. It is the symbolism, the meaning behind the object, that is dangerous. It says that a Muslim male is not responsible for his actions when it comes to the degradation and humiliation of his own female countrymen. Even worse, it implies that she is to blame for the evil inflicted upon her.

In all of the unfortunate stories I've read tonight, the women were wearing the damn burqas but were raped anyway. The women were punished for their rapes. How did the rules keep them safe? If anything, I imagine this disregard for Muslim women only encourages the men to keep on raping. Why? Because how many women are going to report a rape when they know they're likely to end up ridiculed, jailed, lashed and ostracized for something they already feel pretty miserable about in the first place?

I think these are the real issues that need to be brought to light. The cloth as you said is harmless and has many meanings, it is the teachings which encourage that kind of behaviour (random abuse of women) that are the problem. I doubt many Muslims are proud of issues like this and would themselves want to find a way to solve problems like this. I believe that if we concentrate our attention on important issues like teachings on vile perception of women without stereotyping or attacking or alienating sections of community together (us and them) we can find solutions to these problems.

[little pingoin]

I think these are the real issues that need to be brought to light. The cloth as you said is harmless and has many meanings, it is the teachings which encourage that kind of behaviour (random abuse of women) that are the problem. I doubt many Muslims are proud of issues like this and would themselves want to find a way to solve problems like this. I believe that if we concentrate our attention on important issues like teachings on vile perception of women without stereotyping or attacking or alienating sections of community together (us and them) we can find solutions to these problems.

Exactly. If the burqa were to cease to exist at 14:00 (pick any time zone) the problem would still remain. The problem is not the symbols used. The problem is the thinking behind the symbols.

But I'm fairly certain Gribble and a few others made that point very early on in the thread, if not exactly in those words.

[IndiReloaded]

How many of you here know what happens to a Western woman who goes w/o garb in a muslim country? Say, Saudi Arabia? Do you think they tolerate her 'right' to express her culture?

Just saying.

[IndiReloaded]

Oh btw, Eco knows exactly which strings to pull to get you going

LOL, we talked about this by PM Ygg. Eco only thinks she can outsmart a pysch major. I learned those things about 'mirroring and smiling to make them more upset' when she was still in diapers. Notice she chases ME around the site, not the other way around. Mimickry is the highest form of flattery, they say. Even tho not directed at her, she WILL reply to this post. She can't help it. Shrug.

Anyway, yes, large caps & bold IS considered yelling by internet/email standards. There are any number of articles about this, I'm sure you are aware.

My point is still that all such things should be taken in context. Symbols are contextual, which includes uniform garb to make the wearer feel a sense of identity with their group or cause. You surely must agree with that?

sym⋅bol

–noun
1. something used for or regarded as representing something else; a material object representing something, often something immaterial; emblem, token, or sign.

Or, would you like to argue that the Christian cross really *doesn't* represent Christianity?

It IS possible to take tolerance to a ridiculous extreme, Ygg, such as to make it useless to try to come to any reasonable conclusion about anything.

I stand by my example: if I saw a person in KKK garb w/a swastika on his arm, I would be responsible to call the police to check it out. Do you claim otherwise? Should I simply 'be tolerant' on the extremely remote chance he might be attending an "All Buddhist Harry Potter" gathering where he might be attending as Dumbledore?

That is just ridiculous, Ygg. You know it.

Likewise, someone wearing muslim garb does represent (or is forced to represent) the women-oppressive aspects of that religion.

So, either I'm not understanding your point, or I'm wrong. Either way, you'll have to do a better job explaining why my approach is generally unreasonable if you want to change my mind, Ygg. Exceptions don't count: one can always find exceptions. Symbols, by definition, deal in generalities.