Pregnancy

[GBRaul]

Hmm... actually can we agree to disagree? (Wait a minute, I shouldn't be the one saying this )

[LucidDream]

Im not saying its the childs fault, just that the child will might have to suffer when they are older because of a mishap, the pairents where not ready for them.
I guess your opinion on this matter depends on what stage of development you think the child is 'alive'.
So its not a case of the childs life 'ending', but its just not beggining.
I think that the 10 weeks in this case is acceptable, but its best not to wait much longer.

Animal rights campain follow a rule where how cruel it is to kill an animal, depends on how intelegent they are (hence being very against killing primates and dolphins).
At 10 weeks the child probaly has about 5% the cranial capacity of the cow you had for lunch yesterday.

I know it may seam harsh now, but it could save alot of suffering in the future.
But as I said, it depends on when you think the child is 'alive', and I will support anyones opinion (within reason of course).

[Fawn]

I'm Pro-Choice. Its mainly due to the fact that this should be a choice. No one should have the right taken away from them on whether or not they want the child or not. Sure there are adoption services, but what you haven't realised is that once your child is born, you make an attachment immediately to that child. So when its taken away its still the same as killing apart of yourself. Then 18 yrs later the child might come back to you, asking why was I so un-important to just give me away?

I'm in agreement with Lucid. Its the womens decision. Its her body and noone has the right to take over judgement on the future of HER child.

[jslaughter]

I personally am Pro-LIFE but I support a woman's right to CHOOSE - let's call it "pro-choice" because "pro-abortion" makes it sound like you believe in any case of unwanted pregnancy a woman should abort. (Or maybe that is what you all mean?)

I was adopted which means I have lived my whole life with the knowledge that I was an unplanned pregnancy - I was a blessing to two people who could not have children. I am glad my mother sacrificed nine months of her life to bring me into this world.

I am a birth mother and I cannot express how incredible it was to hand my son to his parents so they could meet him for the first time.

No matter what it is clear that a choice has to be made but remember that there is no decision that does not have SERIOUS long term effects. While I was pregnant many of my older female friends admitted they had terminated pregnancies - my friend Cathy believes she will never meet the man of her dreams because God is punishing her - I tried to tell her God doesn't work that way, but sadly I think she is punishing herself so she may never get married and will always think it's her punishment. Another friend thinks the reason she only has daughters is because she wanted a son so badly and daughters are her punishment.

I would just ask that you remember there are MANY options and choices within choices to consider - if you chose adoption there are different KINDS of adoption. Time is essential but do not allow yourself to be rushed because you cannot unring the bell.

[squirrley]

I agree with Jules 100% and then some. I am also Pro-LIFE but believe a woman has a right to choose. See thats the key~CHOOSE. And like Jules said, theyre are so many options available today other than abortion. Life begins at conception, I dont care what anyone else says, or comes in here with "their" facts, I am a Christian and believe that life is a gift from God.

I too have a friend who chose adoption. It was very difficult to carry her son for 9 months and then to give him away. BUT together her and I faced the issues. And didnt see that giving Nathan to another set of parents was "giving away" her son, BUT giving him opportunities he would not have while in a single parent home. She gave him life, and gave a wonderful couple who could not have children a gift from God.

When you engage in sex, you also take on EVERY ASPECT of the consequences, emotional and physical. YOU CHOOSE to have sex, you CHOOSE to have the accidents. As a single parent, and getting pregnant at 18, I CHOSE to have my son. There was not one iota of thought that even though I was still in HS that my pregnany was a inconvience. My child is NOT an inconvience in my life, he IS my life.

It takes a very strong individual to make a decision whether to keep their child or place the child for adoption. But I say to those who have made the decision to have the child, takes more strength and character then those who choose any easy way out.(abortion)

Just think of all of your options before making a decision that you cant take back.

[LucidDream]

Thanks both of you, your points where very well put.

[nomas]

I am pro-life.

It is an issue, as Lucid says, about where you define that life begins...because taking human life is the definition of murder, but the issue lies at "is the baby considered alive"??

Like Squirrel, I say life begins at conception. If sperm and egg never come together to begin life, they each are disposed of by the body naturally. If they do get together in a woman's womb (or a test tube), they begin immediately to grow, multiply, develop.. a process that doesn't end until you die. Unless interrupted, this embryo will continue to go through it's phases through a life like you and me...there are changes like going from the womb, to breathing air..just like we experience changes once we're born with puberty, menopause, etc. I don't know much about awareness of self, but I do know that during abortions babies fight for their life fiercely...to me, they are very aware that their life is being threatened and are fighting to keep that from happening.

As far as intelligence being a deciding factor for termination of life...what about mentally disabled children...you'll be hard pressed to find someone to say it would be okay to kill them.

I agree that living in a negative environment is not good for anyone, but the solution to that is adoption. There are MANY, MANY couples who have a lot of love to give and raise a child...so living in a negative environment is not the only option that a child has. HERE is where there is a "choice"...not at the point of "should this baby be allowed to be born".

Now I am also all for animal rights. Mainly, animal cruelty. I eat meat. I eat vegetables. I'll eat pretty much anything my body has been equipped with to digest. Here it's a question of level of tolerance. Ever killed a fly? A mosquito? Ever washed your dog with anti-flea shampoo? Killed "parasites" of any sort? To some degree we all kill life, even if they're not cute and furry or endangered. Ever washed your hands with antibacterial soap? Bacteria is alive too. So are plants, for that matter. We cannot all live off of the sun and water and carbon-oxides like plants. This is why there is an ecosystem where we coexist. Death is also a part of life. Herbivores eat the plant LIFE, carnivores eat herbivores, some can consume both, like us. But here is another place where I am pro-choice...you can eat whatever you want..you're not hurting anyone else in the process.

So a lion takes down a helpless baby. To him it's easy food. Hienas will start to eat animals while they're still alive without regard to the animal's pain. We, as humans, are "humane" and will restrain from such practices. We are above animals, after all, right? So in the same spirit I am pro-life. We should be too humane to kill human life.

What about the girl who was raped?

Say I was looted. They took my car, everything in my house, and I don't have insurance. You know what, someone just made me a victim. Now I'm screwed, and it'll take me probably a hell of a lot longer than 9 months to recouperate everything that was taken from me. Because I was made a victim doesn't mean I'm going to pay it forward. I'm not going to find another person's house to rob and, while it won't be the same as all the nice stuff I had, I'll feel a little better. No.. I'm a victim and tough luck. I'm not going to screw someone else to even it out for me. I hope the analogy is clear.

Now, I'm not here to judge. I am a believer and God, while I don't believe I know what he wants and doesn't want. So if you eat meat, if you have an abortion, if you killed anyone in self-defence, if you killed someone to steal their purse, if you raped someone...that's not for me to judge. Here we live by the laws of man and they differ from country to country, state to state, city to city, home to home. There are consequences for breaking laws. If you rape someone and are caught, I think you should be removed from the rest of us who like to live life without this that we consider an injustice. You are a menace to the society we like to live in and having your roam freely diminishes our piece of mind. Same for any other crime. Abortions: you are not making a victim out fellow citizens. You are only a menace to the child you carry. Removing you from society will not help the rest of it's citizens, so here's where I'm sounding pro-choice.

I am pro-life, but I am not one to judge nor do I believe jail time is necessary to those who have abortions...some who have them receive punishment enough....but maybe a chastity belt...

Freddie

[LucidDream]

I like thise big morale debates as long as everyone is mature about it, its always interesting to see what different peoples views are.
Come one, more opinions please!

[britishchick]

That was my point exactly...if people are responsible enough to make the decision to have sex then they are responsible enough to deal with the consequences of pregnancy if it occurs. A childs life begins as soon as its concieved..yes at first its just a small tiny egg which then develops into an embryo and starts to take form. At 10 weeks old the baby is already forming and moving about and the genitalia has even started to form. The heart is formed..the baby has began to swallow and organs and muscles are beginning to function. S o a life is already created..therefore having an aboriton wouldnt be killing the begiining of an egg, seed...it would be the killing of ur child. I agree with squirrley..abortion is an easy way out for people who dont want to have to deal with the consequences. I know for sure if i couldnt care for the child or felt like i couldnt cope i would give the baby a alife with a couple who cannot concieve. Thats the best gift in the world to do for someone. Yes it may be hard after the birth to give ur child up..but when that child is born and u look at that cute little bundle that u have delivered and carried for 9 mths...i bet u any money u would be glad you didnt abort or sometimes mad at the fact u even thought of abortion. One of my best friends had an abortion when she was 18...now at the age of 21 when she wanted one...she miscarried at15 weeks and she says its punishment for killing the first one..she hates herself for it and it sent her depressed for a long long time. People dont realise that its not only the aspect of removing a child...it can also cause problems inside ur body. Another person i know at my workplace had an abortion of twins because she couldnt cope with the idea of having children...and last year she discovered she had cancer of the womb and had to have a hysterectomy...now she cant have any at all...and she hates herself every day for giving those 2 little boys up.

[GBRaul]

I used to think abortions were really no big deal until I saw this video of how abortions are carried out. The doctor opens up the woman's vagina, sticks in a pair of thongs and CRUSHES, yes, CRUSHES the baby's HEAD!!! In the video on the ultrascan, you can see the baby moving away from the thongs until it gets trapped in one corner of the uterus, then the doctor moves in and utterly pulverises the poor thing's skull. Then the doctor starts removing the baby bit by bit. It looked utterly inhumane to me, which is why I am anti-abortion. Though I do understand where some of you stand on this - the thing about choice. Like the girl who gets raped - why would she want to keep a creep's child? I can understand if the girl chooses to get an abortion. After all, wouldn't she have loved to crush the rapist's skull too?

[LucidDream]

Yeah...its probaly best not to think about how the prosess is done, I think thats absolutoly sickening...

[nomas]

No, I don't think it's best not to think about the unpleasant side of the issue. If we're talking abortion, let's talk about every aspect: we'll mention the process just as well as we'll mention the fact that some unwanted pregnancies are products of a rape.

I haven't seen the video, but I've read about the process and it's an all out fight that the little Baby puts up to not be killed. Of course, a baby stands no chance against an armed adult. I don't think I want to see the video..just in words it makes my stomach turn and I'm not squeamish in the least bit.

As britishchick said, if a pregnancy is a result of you fooling around, no rape or anything like that, that's what really get's me. Like I said, I believe abortions are murdering of babies, and if this is just because you got horny and had sex and thought there would be no consequences or at least you could do something about it..I don't even know how to express how immature and ridiculous this attitude seems to me. Like I said, even if you were raped, tragic though it is, you were victimized and you still should not kill a baby because of it.

I know it's easy to say as a man, and maybe women think that this is a chauvinistic attitude. I understand that there are a lot of men out there who would have no problems disregarding a child of theirs in some woman's womb as "not his problem". But there are many of us who are not like that.

My younger sister had TWINS out of wedlock and the biological father of the kids (unaffectionately reffered to as "the donor") is one such guy. My sister has had to raise 2 little active babies alone. We (the family..my parents more than anyone) help where we can, but its still very dificult for her. She had them at 19 years of age and she was very immature..but she, in my opinion, did the right thing in having them.

Human life is no insignificant thing.

This is my only argument against casual sex. And by casual I mean a lot more stringent than the term suggests. Forget morals and religion..I say don't have sex before marriage, or before any really deep bond/commitment between couples simply because there is a chance for you to father a child. Currently this is why I'm not sexually active. Call me selfish, but right now I want it to be about me. I have a lot of ambitions, a lot of things I want to do, adventures I want to live...things that are infinitely easier to do while I'm completely alone..with only me to take care of. All I have to do is survive..but if ever I was to have a child, my priorities change. Babies don't ask to come into the world..they are the result of our actions and it is a responsibility I will take seriously. I bring a life into this world, I will be responsible for raising him/her as best as I can to make him/her into a productive member of society..teach what I know, then release them into the world. Hence my decision. As long as I can hold out, I will. My current dreams of liberty and not having dependants outweigh the pleasures that sex will no doubt be. One day if I find a girl and fall in love, then the product of our love may be children wich we will lovingly raise (ideally speaking, of course)..and that will be the new source of joy and ambition in my life..

Did I veer of course?? I ended up talking about me, huh??

But read the first part..it's on-topic..

Freddie

[BillyGalbreath]

Ok - my brain has shut down for the day - so escuse me if my post seems a little, well - not too informative and/or lack of good words.

I am WAY against abortion. No matter who you are, no matter how old you are, no matter where you live, no matter WHAT !

Yeah condoms and junk aren't 100% effective - you should already know this BEFORE you have sex. And thus, you should know ALL the different outcomes, no matter how great or small the chance is.

If you are the type that will go have sex, then if the girl pops up pregnant you run and get an abortion - then I am sorry folks. You aren't meant to have sex. If you cant handle the responsablilities of YOUR OWN actions - Then you DO NOT DESERVE the RIGHT to CHOOSE.

I have 3 kids. NONE of them were planned. Did abortion ever once cross my mind ? Only once - when my dad told me to get Robin to abort our first child. After I thought about it for an hour I realized how wrong that would be. And today I thank the lord I had the strength to stand up to my father, at the age of 16, and to choose my OWN child over his feelings.

If you are old enough to have sex - then you are old enough to THINK. If you can think then you know right from wrong. And thus you would KNOW that killing your own child is not only wrong - it's unethical. Its the worst possible thing you could do. EVER. Killing a child from the womb is NO LESS worse than drowning your kids in a tub cause you cant "handle" them.

If you are active enough to have a baby - then you are active enough to GROW THE **** UP AND TAKE CARE OF IT !!!

This subject hits me REALLY close to home and I a EXTREMELY passionate about it. If I, out of all the people in the world, can take care of MY OWN CHILDREN, and MY OWN RESPONSIBILITIES - then god damn it - ANYONE ****ING CAN.

Geesus people - If you have an abortion you are the lowest life form I've ever known. That goes for ANYONE !

I don't want to insult people here, but damn - THINK OF WHAT YOU ARE DOING HERE.

"oh, but it was a mistake." Too ****ing bad - you knew the possibilities were their - you took the "risk". You deal with the "concequences".

This kind of situation seperates the Humans from the Animals. Do you grow the **** up and do what you have to do ? Or do you give up, and take the "easy" way out ?

I am not saying it is easy to have an abortion. I've heard the stories. I've read the articles. I know about the women that regret doing it. I know the horrible feelings you get once its done and over with. I know how "hard" it is on you stupid asses.

Try being a SINGLE PARENT. I dont care how old you are or how much money you make, its the hardest thing you'll ever have to do. Try waking up in the middle of the night cause your baby is screaming at the top of his lungs, and you dont know why, and you dont know what to do or how to comfort him ! Try taking care of a sick child. Try staying home cause you cant go anywhere with friends cause you have to take care of your son. Try missing out on parties. Try cleaning your entire life up just so you can better your childs life. Try quitting drugs and alcohol (if you do them). Try chnging your entire life. Try being 19 years old with 3 ****ing kids from 2 different women. ou don't know what hard is. I promise.

Now after I said all that, do I look back at all the things I've done, all the hard times I've been thru because of my kids, and everything else.. Would I go back and have an abortion ? If you think yes, I curse you with the plague.

My kids are the best thing thats ever happened to me. They bring the only joy that cant be broken into my life. They are the only ones why I am still alive. They are the ones That have helped me become a better person. They helped me mature. They have made me become the man I've always wanted to be.

I don't know how to end this thread on any good terms - and I know with my words, I have made alot of you angry. But I dont care what you think of me. I dont care what you say. All I care about is what YOUR kids would say to you if they knew you wanted to get an abortion.

If what I have said hasn't effected you - whether you got mad, decided not to get an abortion, or started crying - i dont care what is it - if you weren't effected by what I have said - then you are no human. You are nothing. You are not a man/woman. You are a mere child. Unresponsible, unreasonable, unexperienced child. And you should NOT be allowed to live, let alone have sex.

[britishchick]

Very well put billy and im proud of u raising them kiddies...im sure your a great daddy!My kids are my world, yes it gets stressful..i had 2 kids under the age of 1 as they are only 10mths apart from each other and sometimes i feel like pulling my hair out, but at the end of the day i wouldnt give them up for the world. The overwhelming love u feel for that child when u hold them in ur arms after birth is a feeling u cant describe ever..its magical and its purely a miracle...how anyone would want to give up that special moment is really beyond me and like u said billy..there are so many immature people out there having sex because they think its sooo cooool then when they find out they are pregnant they cry wolf and try to take the easy way out. Its like rape victims...dont get me wrong that is the worst possible thing for someone to go through and to know that ur pregnant from some bastards violent rage is out of order but still....a child has been created and its not their fault..if u couldnt cope with the fact ur child was a result of rape...then adopt.

[britishchick]

feel good about abortion???

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