Obama's HealthCare Plan

[Sanctuary]

It's not odd. It's pretty normal.

Lots of regular, hardworking people are getting ****ed every day because they get sick. Not even big time sick, like cancer, but like kidney stone kind of sick, where you miss a little bit of work, but you don't get paid for it because you already took all of your vacation time taking care of your kids when they were sick or on yet another of the multitudinous holidays they get from school so your pay gets docked.

How are you supposed to afford groceries with the smaller paycheck? You live so close to the line already that there's no savings to fall back on, so you get that credit card out, the one that's supposed to be only for emergencies.

The credit card is an even worse idea than it used to be because the interest rate has more than doubled over the last three months, with credit companies scrambling to set the rates as high as they can before it becomes illegal for them to hike them (the government gave them plenty of warning, though, so don't worry about them, in case you were concerned that the rich might not get richer).

So what do you do? You get a second job, that's what. You get run down as all hell, working all the time, and your kids don't have you around to help make up for what they aren't learning in school and your relationship starts to suffer because you never see each other since you both work two jobs.

This isn't that unusual a story, Sanctuary, and it's not a story about assholes who are trying to get something for nothing.

Ask yourself a question: how did the rich get rich? Was it necessarily by merit? Were they just so wonderful that people started throwing money at them?

A lotta people's argument seems to be that just because someone works hard, they deserve a good life free from hardships. You have people in third world countries who work hard everyday but because of limited opportunities there, they starve. How about I dock some of your salary every week to pay for their food. Compared to them, you're certainly "rich."

You don't have to use a credit card to buy groceries, there's welfare.

Actually, if I recall correctly, months back legislation was passed to regulate credit card companies.

Most rich people got to where they are because of merit, not all, but most. This is the country of innovation and entrepreneurship, seeing people become rich by their own merit shouldn't be surprising. Rich people didn't just sit on their ass to become rich (well there's a small percentage like Paris Hilton who do), they probably worked their ass off to get where they are.

[Sanctuary]

I don't care how the health care costs come down, they just need to.

And it's not "free" health care if we're all paying into it.

Worried about the bottom feeders and illegal immigrants?

Why bother?

They already take full advantage of our emergency rooms as it is.

I would also like to mention that you're from New York.

You're a forced Union state.

The cost of living is higher in your state therefore your wages are higher.

You may wonder why I'm not Union.

For one, this a right-to-work state. No person may be force to join a Union for employment. Secondly, union has better pay and great benefits but none of that means anything if they can't get you on a job. You're still obligated to pay dues regardless of your employment. Open shops have most of big jobs down here. Union just doesn't have the kind of muscle it does in the blue states.

I wasn't trying to compete with you on wages, I was saying I won't exactly be in the best shape either. But electricians here are in high demand cuz we do a lot of construction here in the city.

[CocoChanel]

If you had a disease that advanced to life threatening all because you didn't have health care I think you would think differently. This isn't a free paycheck, it's health care. Everyone deserves a chance at a healthy life.

[Sanctuary]

If you had a disease that advanced to life threatening all because you didn't have health care I think you would think differently. This isn't a free paycheck, it's health care. Everyone deserves a chance at a healthy life.

I doubt it. In the grand scheme of things (and I mean the universe), we are all probably meaningless. Plus, I say so right there in my original post that I wouldn't compromise my beliefs just because it would benefit me.

Oh wait, scratch that. If it was an incredibly painful disease and for some reason suicide was out of the option, I'll compromise lol.

[doppelgaenger]

A lotta people's argument seems to be that just because someone works hard, they deserve a good life free from hardships. You have people in third world countries who work hard everyday but because of limited opportunities there, they starve. How about I dock some of your salary every week to pay for their food. Compared to them, you're certainly "rich."

You don't have to use a credit card to buy groceries, there's welfare.

Actually, if I recall correctly, months back legislation was passed to regulate credit card companies.

Most rich people got to where they are because of merit, not all, but most. This is the country of innovation and entrepreneurship, seeing people become rich by their own merit shouldn't be surprising. Rich people didn't just sit on their ass to become rich (well there's a small percentage like Paris Hilton who do), they probably worked their ass off to get where they are.

I don't mean to shit on your circus, but 'rich' people as you call them, though they have earned their own profits, they did not do that independently from society or the nation. All the money was earned in the nation, and it, like everybody else's money is subject to nation's tax, debt, and everything else. As MVplaya pointed out, you're already paying tax; income tax, sales tax, and in NY you probably have other taxes. You know you're paying for government employees (Mailmen, police, office workers, etc.), road construction, public schools, etc.?

What you're saying is not rational. It's as if I said rich people shouldn't have to pay for poor people education, poor people transportation, the general safety of poor people, etc. Quit trying to bring up Africa to justify your bullshit. This is a national issue, so keep it national.

This is a country where most people are in the middle and poor classes. Majority here rules. And the majority thinks healthcare and health insurance should be available for even the poor. So if you rich people don't like that, go to ****ing Africa.

[Gigabitch]

You don't have to use a credit card to buy groceries, there's welfare.

Welfare can take months to come through, especially since it was cut to ribbons during the last Republican administration.

[url]http://www.stateline.org/live/details/story?contentId=85361[/url]

Actually, if I recall correctly, months back legislation was passed to regulate credit card companies.

[url]http://www.1011now.com/home/headlines/64188862.html[/url]

Look, Sanctuary, public health care helps ALL of us. Having the lower 25% of our population sink into abject poverty and misery doesn't help the rich. The rich want them up and functioning so they can buy, buy, buy their crappy fast food and shoddily manufactured products. Our economy is based on growth, not maintaining the status quo, and there's no growth if the bottom tier is mired in Dickensian wretchedness.

[IndiReloaded]

Most rich people got to where they are because of merit, not all, but most. This is the country of innovation and entrepreneurship, seeing people become rich by their own merit shouldn't be surprising. Rich people didn't just sit on their ass to become rich (well there's a small percentage like Paris Hilton who do), they probably worked their ass off to get where they are.

I don't mean to shit on your circus, but 'rich' people as you call them, though they have earned their own profits, they did not do that independently from society or the nation.

I agree with both of these statements and they aren't mutually exclusive.

Wealthy people are generally those smart/talented enough to benefit from the structure of society. I happen to feel an obligation to help raise the bar in general. Give back to the system that allowed me 'to be', in hippie-speak.

Now, that said, I think those who ask the wealthy to give up their advantages (a la communism) don't understand the value of striving to improve and the power that reward from hard work brings. Why should I work hard if my efforts are just going to go to some Joe who can't be bothered?

I think that those in positions of influence have a duty to facilitate the ability of others to achieve their own potential. What they do beyond that point is entirely up to them and their own initiative.

Healthcare, education, public infrastructure are the minimal foundations required for a 'free society' who values progress through innovation. Everyone in such a society needs to invest in this basic infrastructure so that those people who can drive things forward are better able to reach their potential.

Who knows how many Einsteins or Newtons have been lost in Africa b/c they died from malnutrition as children?

[Sanctuary]

I don't mean to shit on your circus, but 'rich' people as you call them, though they have earned their own profits, they did not do that independently from society or the nation. All the money was earned in the nation, and it, like everybody else's money is subject to nation's tax, debt, and everything else. As MVplaya pointed out, you're already paying tax; income tax, sales tax, and in NY you probably have other taxes. You know you're paying for government employees (Mailmen, police, office workers, etc.), road construction, public schools, etc.?

What you're saying is not rational. It's as if I said rich people shouldn't have to pay for poor people education, poor people transportation, the general safety of poor people, etc. Quit trying to bring up Africa to justify your bullshit. This is a national issue, so keep it national.

This is a country where most people are in the middle and poor classes. Majority here rules. And the majority thinks healthcare and health insurance should be available for even the poor. So if you rich people don't like that, go to ****ing Africa.

Er you misconstrued my argument and then called me irrational lol. I'm used to that by now so it's no problem.

Rich people already pay way more than their fair share under a progressive tax system. You make it sound like my argument is that the rich shouldn't pay taxes at all or something lol.

Please refer to this joke: Bar Stool Economics cuz you seem to be a populist.

Links not working for me so I'm just gonna copy/paste the whole thing.

>
Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve.
"Since you are all such good customers", he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20". Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.
The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his "fair share?"
They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.
"I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, "but he got $10!"
"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!"
"That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!"
"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"
The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.
The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

This is of course a light hearted way to poke fun at "the system", but still yet an interesting look at the North American tax system. It also observes how we can sometimes get caught up in our own worlds such that we lose sight of the forest through the trees.

>

Anyways, if you made all the rich people leave the country, then whereever the rich people go, prosperity will follow. A country's human capital is it's most valuable resource. It's the reason we are where we are (we being the U.S.). Giving free stuff to the poor however, the only good I can see that will come out of that is the prevention of civil unrest from angry protesters like you.

[Sanctuary]

Look, Sanctuary, public health care helps ALL of us. Having the lower 25% of our population sink into abject poverty and misery doesn't help the rich. The rich want them up and functioning so they can buy, buy, buy their crappy fast food and shoddily manufactured products. Our economy is based on growth, not maintaining the status quo, and there's no growth if the bottom tier is mired in Dickensian wretchedness.

Prove to me that switching to to public healthcare would be conducive to GDP growth and I'll do a complete 180 and recant any and all arguments I made concerning this topic. I'm not saying it's impossible but everything I read about says we'll go the other way by helping the poor. I'm not even an econ major though so I don't claim to know all the facts.

[Sanctuary]

I agree with both of these statements and they aren't mutually exclusive.

Wealthy people are generally those smart/talented enough to benefit from the structure of society. I happen to feel an obligation to help raise the bar in general. Give back to the system that allowed me 'to be', in hippie-speak.

Now, that said, I think those who ask the wealthy to give up their advantages (a la communism) don't understand the value of striving to improve and the power that reward from hard work brings. Why should I work hard if my efforts are just going to go to some Joe who can't be bothered?

I think that those in positions of influence have a duty to facilitate the ability of others to achieve their own potential. What they do beyond that point is entirely up to them and their own initiative.

Healthcare, education, public infrastructure are the minimal foundations required for a 'free society' who values progress through innovation. Everyone in such a society needs to invest in this basic infrastructure so that those people who can drive things forward are better able to reach their potential.

Who knows how many Einsteins or Newtons have been lost in Africa b/c they died from malnutrition as children?

Perhaps like my argument with MVPlaya, I just don't see eye to eye with you that the rich have an obligation to help the poor. If that's how you feel, you should be donating a portion of your paycheck to African kids. You do make a sound argument for your beliefs though.

You ask me how many Einsteins or Newtons would be lost because they died from malnutrition but I can just as easily ask you how many Einsteins and Newtons would be discouraged from doing the best work they could for society cuz the rewards wouldn't be worth it under a heavy progressive tax system.

[IndiReloaded]

I donate a significant portion of my paycheques to support Canada's socialized systems. I don't view providing minimal humans standards as giving away my wealth, I view it as an investment in my country's future.

I also spend a significant amount of my day mentoring people to challenge and improve themselves. I think this is one of the most important parts of my job. Its good for them which means its good for society. Training of highly qualified personnel is really important for driving progress.

I will leave it to MVP to explain the benefits of sharing wealth to increase overall prosperity, in one's home country or globally. Its not the zero-sum game you seem to think it is. He's the economist, tho, so should be able to explain better.

[Lipp]

Since people with disabilities (physical and mental) and people above the age of 65 aren't sufficiently productive members of society I believe that simply killing them off would be conducive to GDP growth.

If you disagree you should send your grandmother to a retirement village in the Ssesse islands in Uganda, and then you can talk.

[Sanctuary]

Since people with disabilities (physical and mental) and people above the age of 65 aren't sufficiently productive members of society I believe that simply killing them off would be conducive to GDP growth.

If you disagree you should send your grandmother to a retirement village in the Ssesse islands in Uganda, and then you can talk.

Actually, I agree 100% with that (search the thread for "eskimos"). And it would only be conducive to GDP growth if they require public resources to stay alive and are unable to sustain themselves otherwise.

[Sanctuary]

I donate a significant portion of my paycheques to support Canada's socialized systems. I don't view providing minimal humans standards as giving away my wealth, I view it as an investment in my country's future.

I also spend a significant amount of my day mentoring people to challenge and improve themselves. I think this is one of the most important parts of my job. Its good for them which means its good for society. Training of highly qualified personnel is really important for driving progress.

I will leave it to MVP to explain the benefits of sharing wealth to increase overall prosperity, in one's home country or globally. Its not the zero-sum game you seem to think it is. He's the economist, tho, so should be able to explain better.

And if they raised your taxes, at what point would you say no? Or would you never say no even if it got to the point where you have no disposable income left?

Of course given the choice between saving a human life and not saving one, I'd choose save; but there are costs associated with doing so. I simply have a lower tolerance than you do (actually my tolerance is at 0).

Economics is mostly not a zero-sum game (and I use that to talk about the disparity of wealth). But in this situation, taxing the rich some more (who already pay far more in taxes than the poor) so the poor can get free stuff is fairly consistent with the properties of zero-sum.

[IndiReloaded]

Sorry Sanctuary, but your argument just doesn't fly. Look at all the examples of people who grew up poor but b/c rich, at least in part b/c they could benefit from a free public education:

Abraham Lincoln
William Jefferson Clinton
Harry S Truman
Bill Gates
Warren Buffett
Larry Ellison (Oracle)
Steve Jobs (Apple)
Bill Lear (Lear Corp)
Bill Clinton
Obama

What you are suggesting is a reinstatement of feudalism, with lords and peasants. Sorry, but democracy says wealthy folk pay more. Yes, of course, extreme taxation would (and has) driven business overseas but overall its self-correcting. If you want to hoard your wealth tax-free, you'll have to move to the Cayman islands or Belize.

I'm less concerned about my taxation rate as how my tax dollars are spent or wasted. I think this is a far worse issue. If Iraq hadn't happened, the US would already have a national healthplan. Put the focus where it belongs--on increasing government accountability and getting rid of crooked politicians and cronyism. Not on denying decent, hard-working people basic health care.

Why do I get the feeling we are doing a homework assignment for you? LOL.