Shooting Amish People

[TDurden]

You tell 'em Vash!

In any case, I'm taking a basic handgun safety course with my buds come November at a local gun range. Soon after I'll probably pick up a rifle.

It's funny though, when we were inquiring about the course, and because we're all under 21, the guy said "See, it doesn't make any sense, I could sell to you right now ::points over:: that AR-15 assault rifle with grenade launcher, but I couldn't sell you a box of 9mm bullets."

Maybe I'll pick up a handgun in the future, but right now I'd rather have a rifle.

are you serious? an assault rifle w/ grenade launcher? if your not joking that's ****ing frightening. no civilian needs an automatic firearm

[Cybog]

"If the week's slayings had happened in any middle-class neighborhood in Oakland, there would have been calls for immediate action."

That just about sums it up. Murder count is at 118 - people need to stop the violence! It's just sad...


Oakland's daily tragedies surpass school shootings
City's soaring homicide tally fails to elicit the public outcry, official action it deserves
- Chip Johnson
Tuesday, October 3, 2006


America is reeling over school shootings in Pennsylvania, Colorado and Wisconsin that have killed five innocent victims in a week -- but Oakland trumps them all.

Seven people were shot and killed in Oakland in the same period, including two women gunned down on the street and a Brink's guard slain in a robbery attempt that his partner allegedly plotted. In September, 18 people were slain. And on Monday night, police were investigating yet another slaying, bringing the city's runaway toll to 117.

Over the past three months, 47 people have been killed, including Gail Breda, 52, and her friend Shirley Hill, 53, last week. While the cable TV news channels spent considerable time on the school shootings, Oakland's deadly march went on without so much as a hiccup in the national media.

And not much else has been heard from Oakland's City Hall. Certainly not from outgoing Mayor Jerry Brown, who is running for state attorney general. In an interview Monday, he expressed alarm that the city has hit a 10-year high for homicides, but he didn't seem outraged by the week's gunslinging.

He wanted to talk about the Police Department's latest electronic surveillance devices -- one that uses sound to track gunshots and another that automatically scans license plates for possible stolen vehicles -- as strategies that will have a long-term impact on the city's streets.

If the week's slayings had happened in any middle-class neighborhood in Oakland, there would have been calls for immediate action. But in the tough neighborhoods of East and West Oakland, there was only sadness and grief.

The same day Breda and Hill died, a third woman, Akiba Finister, 29, of Hayward, was stabbed to death in an apartment building in the 6900 block of Fresno Street around 11 p.m., police said. Authorities said they are searching for an ex-boyfriend in connection with the fatal attack.

Since the city's homicide rate climbed again in 2002, Brown has initiated literally a dozen task forces to address the problems -- everything from placing curfews on parolees to passing a bond measure to fund more police officers to hauling in the city's 100 most violent offenders for last-chance discussions with law enforcement authorities.

So far, none of those ideas has done much to slow the killings. Unless things change in the next three months, he will leave Oakland with its highest homicide rate during his eight-year watch as the city's leader.

Brown argues that ongoing efforts to reduce crime, including new technology scheduled to come online in coming weeks, will make a long-term impact.

"The (homicide) rate is high, like it was in the 1990s; it's also higher in Richmond, Compton and a half-dozen other cities in the country," he said.

He also said the federal court order that placed a greater self-monitoring burden on the Oakland Police Department in the wake of the Riders corruption case has reduced the number of officers on the street.

For Olis Simmons, the executive director of Youth Uprising, a city-funded youth center in East Oakland, the spiraling crime rate is not a matter for the police but an alarming social trend that's being underplayed and largely overlooked.

"There was a time when kids who had fights ended up being friends later, but they don't fight like that anymore," Simmons said, referring to the interactions between adolescents.

"These kids live in an era of instant gratification, and their pride can't take the blow," she said. "They seek respect and revenge just as instantly. ... You add easy access to guns, and you have a deadly cocktail."

Surveys taken of the 1,500 youth members who show up at the center every week show that about 75 percent of them had a friend, relative or school chum who has been murdered, Simmons said. "The bulk of them know between three and eight" victims.

One of her clients, Cyrioco Robinson, 19, is all too familiar with the availability of guns in the neighborhood where he grew up.

"I can usually tell when someone has a gun on them because I'm someone who used to be that way," Robinson said. "I didn't leave the house unless I had one, so I can kinda tell, by the way someone walks and talks to other people, when someone is carrying."

He said he stole his first weapon, a 20-gauge shotgun, from a drug dealer when he was 14 years old.

Robinson avoids house parties because it's impossible to know who will show up or what will happen. He prefers to spend time at the youth center -- putting together dance moves and rap songs or just hangin' out with friends.

For the residents of neighborhoods hardest hit by the surging violence, the slayings won't come and go like politicians and crime-fighting strategies -- the violence is a living nightmare with no end in sight.

"Most people don't appreciate the fact that there is a level of interdependence between us and most of these kids," Simmons said. "Their success is our success, and their failure is everyone's failure -- and it affects our property values, our schools, job opportunities and the local economy.

"This isn't a social problem. This is an epidemic."

Chip Johnson's column appears in The Chronicle on Tuesdays and Fridays. E-mail him at [email]chjohnson@sfchronicle.com[/email].

[Cybog]

P.S. The AR-15 he was talking about was single fire only, minus the 3 round burst. So in essence, it was an ordinary automatic rifle. Just because it looks fierce and has a fancy name doesn't make it anymore "badass" than the other more powerful guns out there. There are .50 cal hand cannons and automatic rifles out there that are much more deadly than an AR-15.

AR-15's do not have fully automatic or burst capabilities without illegal / military modifications - which can land you a happy visit from the ATF and a nice quiet stay in a federal prison as a civilian.

And as far as the "Grenade Launcher", good luck finding the 40mm grenade to fire out of that M203 extension. That's only a federal crime against the USA to own one, which will land you in prison probably for life if you were caught with. I seriously doubt the M203 was even legit with a firing pin.

Even still, if I have a 12 pound gun in my front yard that doesn't mean I am legally able to own / fire one without a visit from David Koresh's friends at the ATF.

[Junket]

P.S. The AR-15 he was talking about was single fire only, minus the 3 round burst. So in essence, it was an ordinary automatic rifle. Just because it looks fierce and has a fancy name doesn't make it anymore "badass" than the other more powerful guns out there. There are .50 cal hand cannons and automatic rifles out there that are much more deadly than an AR-15.

I know enough about gun laws to know that it was a semi-automatic. The grenade launcher comment definitely rose my eyebrow as I'd always just assumed a grenade launcher would be a rediculous thing to sell legally. But there it was, in some shape or form, a grenade launcher.

One thing I have heard at least in PA, is that you can keep an automatic weapon...so long as it's taken apart and kept under lock and key in a case and stored in a safe. The ony place you'd be able to fire it legally is at a gun range. However, it's a federal crime if your automatic weapon in any form manages to be stolen from your household. This stuff I heard from the owner of a local gunshop. I just take his word for it considering I don't plan on buyin' an automatic anyway.

[derm]

Look a little deeper. I found a few links for you, but then my computer crashed and I lost them, and I am too lazy to look them up again. Look specifically for an attack in Dublane, Scotland in 1996.

A total ban on private ownership of handguns went into effect in Britain in 1998 as a result of a the 1996 massacre of 16 school children and their teacher by a single gunman. This was BEFORE Columbine, which happened in 1999.

[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/13/newsid_2543000/2543277.stm[/url]

Your right but he was of Canadian decent so If his parent/parents had stayed in Canada everything would be fine and the problem would be confined to US and Canada


Thomas Watt Hamilton a Scottish mass murderer of Canadian descent. Who on the 13th march 1996, at Dunblane Scotland carried out Britain's worst gun rampage. The 43 year old pedophile executed 16 school children and 1 primary teacher in his local primary school, then committed suicide. He had been a Scout leader in 1973, but because of complaints about his behaviour at camp had been dismissed. He tried reluctantly to re-enter the organization

[vashti]

Your right but he was of Canadian decent so If his parent/parents had stayed in Canada everything would be fine and the problem would be confined to US and Canada

Ooh! Way to justify his murder spree! Anyway, he was a resident of SCOTLAND, of Scottish ancestry, and maybe had he stayed in Canada, it wouldn't have happened. Canada is a very non-violent society, unlike we murderous Americans. (When did he move, BTW?)

[derm]

Ooh! Way to justify his murder spree! Anyway, he was a resident of SCOTLAND, of Scottish ancestry, and maybe had he stayed in Canada, it wouldn't have happened. Canada is a very non-violent society, unlike we murderous Americans. (When did he move, BTW?)

I'm just winding you up! Youre funny when you're angry.


Hope it doesn't start here [Ireland] I got godchildren that I want to come visit me when I'm old and being nursed by some young blond in a nurses uniform.

Guess being a pedophile he was on some registrar so decided to go to Scotland to get a job with kids the sick ba*tard

[TDurden]

P.S. The AR-15 he was talking about was single fire only, minus the 3 round burst. So in essence, it was an ordinary automatic rifle. Just because it looks fierce and has a fancy name doesn't make it anymore "badass" than the other more powerful guns out there. There are .50 cal hand cannons and automatic rifles out there that are much more deadly than an AR-15.

AR-15's do not have fully automatic or burst capabilities without illegal / military modifications - which can land you a happy visit from the ATF and a nice quiet stay in a federal prison as a civilian.

And as far as the "Grenade Launcher", good luck finding the 40mm grenade to fire out of that M203 extension. That's only a federal crime against the USA to own one, which will land you in prison probably for life if you were caught with. I seriously doubt the M203 was even legit with a firing pin.

Even still, if I have a 12 pound gun in my front yard that doesn't mean I am legally able to own / fire one without a visit from David Koresh's friends at the ATF.

I wasn't saying it was badass. Simply that given that converting any potentially fully automatic rifle into an actual fully automatic rifle doesn't take much effort if you're experienced with guns and that a grenade launcher is grenade launcher, it really is scary that it's being sold. The fact is, yes, they would get in trouble if they were caught having it lying around the house. But if someone wanted to go on a killing spree, it'd be easier with a fully automatic rifle and a grenade launcher. Bottom line being it doesn't need to be sold. No one needs access to that kind of weapon as a civilian.

Just because it's illegal doesn't mean people don't do it

[Converse]

I think America needs stricter gun laws. Very sad news.

[Junket]

Just because it's illegal doesn't mean people don't do it

Exactly. So if there's guns in the hands of criminals, it completely justifies guns in the hands of law abiding civilians.

Stricter gun laws only affects those who obey them.

Might a mention to the UKer's, that you are surrounded by water?

Even if the US were to ban and confiscate all weapons (which it never would) weapons could and would still make their way across borders from the north and south in to the hands of those obviously not obeying the gun ban.

[misombra]

no matter what law you pass, guns are going to get into the hands of bad people.

if they don't have guns they'll use some other kind of apparatus.

[Junket]

Yeah, so when crazies can only get their hands on knives and baseball bats...I'm gonna want a gun to blow their heads off anyway.

[TDurden]

that's stupid logic. i japan guns are illegal and there are almost no gun crimes. my comment earlier was only in reference to the u.s. where there aren't strict laws. but if we were to enforce anti-gun laws there would be a significant decrease in gun related incidents. look, people can always cause others harm, doesn't matter what laws you create. but the idea isn't to eliminate crime completely, that will never happen. the idea is to minimize it. if you were to make laws surrounding guns stricter there would be less bad people getting their hands on them. the only reason they do now is because it's so easy.

[vashti]

I think America needs stricter gun laws. Very sad news.

I agree. I know too many innocent victims of gun violence. Besides, I like the odds of surviving a basball bat attack much better than the odds of surviving a handgun attack.

[Gigabitch]

I own a handgun and I believe we need stricter laws.