Is my relationship doomed, or should I hang in there?

[pisces7378]

She's risen above a very difficult childhood, has made her way in the world, raised two delightful children. I respect her immensely for figuring out life pretty much on her own, and overcoming terrible odds to live more mindfully and intelligently than most people with all the advantages manage to do.

Be careful here. In all my experience with relationships, I have found that the absolute worst place a man can find himself is in love with a woman that he has elevated to a pedestal. It is so easy to do. You are a very well spoken and obviously intelligent man with a logical and self-aware outlook. Unfortunately guys like you are the first to romanticize someone, cut them slack for things they don't deserve, and in general elevate them to super-human levels of respect. I am sure her life before you was a struggle, and she deserves all the respect that comes with that. But her past is just that. HER PAST. And you weren't there for it, so I find it to be a good policy to take a woman's sob story with a grain of salt. I don't mean disregard it as if she's just a drama queen, but you sound pretty impressed with her story, and I say, who cares? It's December 2009 today!

Since I am a telecommuter, I mothballed my house and took an apartment near her for the past 6 months

Sounds like you are coming on strong. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE a man of action that sees what he wants and goes for it. But her husband died 3 months before you guys met??? That's some serious shit if you ask me. I just got a divorce from my wife and it took me over a year to get to where I wasn't thinking about her everyday. If she had died, I'd probably still be sucking my thumb in the fetal position in the shower.

So even if it sounded like a good idea when you moved near her... I think you might need to move back home IMMEDIATELY. I wouldn't even wait for Christmas. It sounds to me like you are a very thoughtful and caring man... but you might just be a little TOO thoughtful and caring. If you come on too strong, a woman will run from you like the needy pussy she'll get the feeling you are.

I'm going to miss her and her children terribly. When I'm actually with her, it's wonderful for me. I've come to love the life I've built for myself here with her, even with its limitations. I don't have a scarcity mentality, but I seriously doubt I will meet the likes of her again. She is intelligent, honest, ethical, non-judgmental, mature, and very wise. It doesn't hurt that she's gorgeous. I am clear that I would be very happy living with her.

See man... this is some pretty heavy duty stuff. It sounds to me like you have sunken your tentacles of attachment into her whole life. There is nothing casual about your relationship. Think of it from her side... her husband dies, she discovers a mountain of debt and financial stuff, her kids miss their father, she meets this guy, and just like that he moves 1,700 miles to be right there, and is now moving in on the family where the husband was less than a year ago.

It's a bit much my man. Women need space more than you will ever know. It is absolutely IMPERATIVE that you dig deep inside yourself and locate some serious patience. I think she likes you. I think she may even love you. But I KNOW that if you don't back off in a very serious way, and SOOOON, she will get a bad feeling, and she will literally just stop answering the phone. Gone!

It sounds terribly cheesy, but...

If you love something, let it go. If it comes back to you, its yours forever. If it dosent, then it was never meant to be.

Believe this my friend. It is the hardest thing to do, but I guarantee, if you stopped calling her, and just backed off... she will come around and want to be with you. Just don't over explain yourself to her. You seem kind of verbose... i.e. You talk to ****ing much!

If you explain to her in great detail that you have decided to pull back and give her space that she might have time to make sense of this and that, and that you are giving her time to blah blah blah... it kind of ruins the effect.

Just let her know that you care, and that she knows where/how to reach you. And then just politely stand aside. No texts, phone calls, emails... just wait. I PROMISE you it will work.

[azilin]

So even if it sounded like a good idea when you moved near her... I think you might need to move back home IMMEDIATELY. I wouldn't even wait for Christmas. It sounds to me like you are a very thoughtful and caring man... but you might just be a little TOO thoughtful and caring. If you come on too strong, a woman will run from you like the needy pussy she'll get the feeling you are.

We've discussed the timing and it's mutual, as was my coming here. Real life is more complicated than that. We're collaborating on some things; we have a professional relationship as well as a personal one. In any case I have a life and extended family of my own; I'll be traveling enough that I won't see much of her in person the next couple of weeks anyway. The fact that this bothers me more than her, I don't see as a defect on my part. In any case, I'm not burdening her with it.

There is nothing casual about your relationship. Think of it from her side... her husband dies, she discovers a mountain of debt and financial stuff, her kids miss their father, she meets this guy, and just like that he moves 1,700 miles to be right there, and is now moving in on the family where the husband was less than a year ago.

Of course there's nothing casual about our relationship. Again -- everything has happened by mutual agreement. Nor did I move "just like that" -- it was after hundreds of hours of mutually instigated correspondence, phone calls, and three in-person visits, and her explicit permission to come. Also, the late husband was the kid's stepfather, not their father -- and they like me enough that they, at least, don't want me to go.

Just let her know that you care, and that she knows where/how to reach you. And then just politely stand aside. No texts, phone calls, emails... just wait. I PROMISE you it will work.

I don't think you or anyone is in a position to promise me a thing. Nevertheless, your basic point is well taken, which is why I'm standing down and letting it be what it will be. I can't make my interest, intentions, or desires any clearer. The chips will fall where they will.

I'll say this much ... I'm not that interested in listening to women's typical complaints anymore about commitment-phobic, undemonstrative, insensitive men. Give them a commitment-ready, demonstrative, sensitive man, and suddenly, it's their turn to be stand-offish, to the point where now I have a man actually advising me to be indifferent to commitment and connection, that giving a woman what she supposedly would want is too much. It's enough to choke a goat. The only reason I'm merely privately grumpy about this rather than actually p_ssed off is the extenuating circumstances.

[pisces7378]

azilin... do yourself a favor. Go to a book store RIGHT NOW. Find a book called "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. Robert Glover. Read it cover to cover before you even leave your apartment again. It is only maybe 200 easy to read pages. You could do it in a day.

I think you are a total "Nice Guy".

You make such a strong case that everything was so mutually decided, and all that. You are such a DUDE. You think like a dude, you act like a dude, and you expect your woman to also think and act like a dude. I wasn't calling you out for being some kind of asshole for moving up to where she lives. I think that's fine. And I am sure that she meant it when she said it was fine. But, now she seems to be trying to un-mean it, and it is your job to back off. And I know you are. You are moving, and that is great. I think that 99-100% of all that you are DOING is great. My only warning flags come from some of the things you say about how you are thinking about this.

You sound very much like a military man. Everything is in it's place, and this makes logical sense, and this happened this many months ago, so this must be this and that must be that. But then at the end you fall apart and turn into a total victim bitch, talking about how women have falsely accused men of being commitment-phobic... but now that YOU have decided that you'd like to make a commitment to a woman who's husband just died, and this ONE WOMAN is having cold feet a little, you and all of man is the horrible victim to femininity at large.

Read the book. If the first chapter doesn't speak directly to you, I'll refund you the money myself.

[IndiReloaded]

Azilin, sounds to me like you have a firm grasp of your intellectual and emotional situation. Your expectations are in control and you are not starry-eyed about your situation. Carry on and see what time brings, any urgency to your situation is of your own making. You are who you and need not change for anyone.

You are one of the more reasonable, mature posters to happen on this site for a while (there are some of an age with you, but a minority). Feel free to stick around, vent, discuss and perhaps even provide some wisdom if and when the mood strikes.

Fair winds, keep your course true.

[pisces7378]

Azilin, sounds to me like you have a firm grasp of your intellectual and emotional situation. Your expectations are in control and you are not starry-eyed about your situation. Carry on and see what time brings, any urgency to your situation is of your own making. You are who you and need not change for anyone.

You are one of the more reasonable, mature posters to happen on this site for a while (there are some of an age with you, but a minority). Feel free to stick around, vent, discuss and perhaps even provide some wisdom if and when the mood strikes.

Fair winds, keep your course true.

We are the Worrrrrrrrrld... We are the Childrennnnnn!

[IndiReloaded]

Just to be perfectly clear: my post was for Azilin and not you, Pisces. You have your own thread, I believe?

Tho, since you interject, how old are you, Pisces?

[pisces7378]

Just to be perfectly clear: my post was for Azilin and not you, Pisces. You have your own thread, I believe?

Tho, since you interject, how old are you, Pisces?

You know... I don't know why I am posting such crap. I am the world's biggest softy. I want this guy to be happy. I really want his thing to work out with this lady he met on the internet. I feel very much for the loss of his wife, and I feel a respectful sadness for the loss of his girl's husband.

I know these things are real life situations, and it is easy to sit here on the internet and fire off round after round of hardcore "this is how it is" advice. But I know this stuff if hard. No one's perfect. We are all a little needy sometimes. We do the best we can.

And personally, I think this guy is doing a fantastic job. My hats off to ya. Really. I think you have as strong an idea of what you are doing as anyone in the world. I hope it all works out for you. And if you are even 1/4 as calm and self-aware in real life as you are on this message board, I can only assume that she can see you for who you are, and loves it.

Best of luck my friend.

And Indi... I'm 31.

[azilin]

azilin... do yourself a favor. Go to a book store RIGHT NOW. Find a book called "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. Robert Glover. Read it cover to cover before you even leave your apartment again. It is only maybe 200 easy to read pages. You could do it in a day.

Tell you what. Looks like an interesting book -- I'll suck it down to my Kindle and read it in the morning. Happy?

I wasn't calling you out for being some kind of asshole for moving up to where she lives. I think that's fine. And I am sure that she meant it when she said it was fine. But, now she seems to be trying to un-mean it.

Yep, and that's always a woman's prerogative; as Billy Joel sang years ago, "she's never wrong, she just changes her mind". Just try to get away with that as a guy ... "I know we've been lovers for months, and you've spilled your guts to me ... but now I feel I need my space." ** gong **

Can you just imagine how her girlfriends would advise her if I did that to her ... but my guyfriends advise that I meekly back off. While suggesting a book about not being such a doormat. Aye-yi-yi.

You sound very much like a military man.

LOL ... no, couldn't be more 180 degrees the opposite. Never even had fantasies of being in the military. Nightmares, maybe. I am, however, a software developer, so I do appreciate logic, reproducible results, and some kind of relationship between cause and effect. I do make allowances for matters of the heart not being amenable to objective analysis ... but not to the point of being surreal.

Well -- I'm sure your book will sort it all out for me!

[azilin]

You know... I don't know why I am posting such crap. I am the world's biggest softy. I want this guy to be happy. I really want his thing to work out with this lady he met on the internet. I feel very much for the loss of his wife, and I feel a respectful sadness for the loss of his girl's husband. ... Best of luck my friend.

No hard feelings, pisces, and your advice is accepted in the spirit it was offered. And I really AM downloading the book. What the heck. I expect to have plenty of time to read in the coming months anyway *sigh*.

[pisces7378]

Oh the book will help. It is one of those books that every man should read.

Even though your thread has nothing to do with this, I think it is important to mention that our society has no "coming of age" rituals left. At one time, there were things like, a boys first hunt that makes him a man. Or a boy's first jump off some cliff made him a man etc.

Now-a-days, we have no such rituals left. So there never really is a clear line in the sand where a boy is not longer a boy, but a man. And on top of that, we have generations upon generations of men that were raised basically by their mother's. It is hard not to become some needy "Nice Guy".

Anyway. Just read the book. And as you get into it, if you go to [url]www.nomoremrniceguy.com/forums/[/url] there is an excellent forum on refining what it means to be an integrated man instead of a "Nice Guy".

Those guys can be tough though. They make my posts look like baby cakes.

[azilin]

Anyway. Just read the book. And as you get into it, ... there is an excellent forum on refining what it means to be an integrated man instead of a "Nice Guy".

The Integrated Man. I trust this doesn't involve sitting in the woods and beating drums.

[pisces7378]

The Integrated Man. I trust this doesn't involve sitting in the woods and beating drums.

No, it just involves not exhibiting Nice Guy behavior. And for anyone who is reading who is wondering what "Nice Guy Behavior" is, it is the following...

• Nice guys seek the approval of others.
• Nice guys try to hide their perceived flaws and mistakes.
• Nice guys put other people's needs and wants before their own.
• Nice guys sacrifice their personal power and often play the role of a victim.
• Nice guys tend to be disconnected from other men and from their own masculine energy.
• Nice guys co-create relationships that are less than satisfying.
• Nice guys create situations in which they do not have very much good sex.
• Nice guys frequently fail to live up their full potential.

Who is a Nice Guy?

• He is the relative who lets his wife run the show.
• He is the friend who will do anything for anybody, but whose own life seems to be in shambles.
• He is the guy who frustrates his wife because he is so afraid of conflict that nothing ever gets resolved.
• He is the boss who tells one person what they want to hear, then reverses himself to please someone else.
• He is the man who lets people walk all over him because he doesn't want to rock the boat.
• He is the dependable guy at work who will never say "no," but would never tell anyone if they were imposing on him.
• He is the man whose life seems so under control, until BOOM, one day he does something to destroy it all.