U.S. College education questions

[vashti]

US college education is trash. Education here is the same quality as pretty much everything else we produce. I went to a top University and it wasn't much harder than high school, just a bit heavier workload. YC was also right, in that any idiot can graduate. Hence the overwhelming amount of restaurant servers with Bachelor's and even grad degrees.

More people can get degrees in US style schools, because it's about making money, not providing the greatest quality. Classes vary by teacher, but this is a rule as an institution.

I disagree. American Universities are the best in the world (look at any college/university ranking report, and the number of foreign students who want to get in). The reason so many people with degrees are working in restaurants is because they chose crappy majors. But sure, choose an easy major, and anyone can graduate.

[BackUpOrGetStng]

I disagree. American Universities are the best in the world (look at any college/university ranking report, and the number of foreign students who want to get in). The reason so many people with degrees are working in restaurants is because they chose crappy majors. But sure, choose an easy major, and anyone can graduate.

The best programmers in the US are dropouts(college and high school). I've seen several folks with undergrad and Master's degrees in Info. Systems(is that an easy major), who can't write a lick of code in any language. How is it possible to have mastered Info Systems, and not be able to write a single, solitary line of code? I've worked with several Asian/Indian/European people on my teams, and I've yet to find one who couldn't code. Some of them aren't even in IT, they're in Finance! Gintare and Ausra..the 6 foot, model blonde Lithuanian sisters who are also sick programmers and finance aces... I would drink their bath water, *drool*.

Calling it trash was harsh, but I just felt gypped by the whole classroom experience there. Granted, I did go to one of the top high schools in the country. I'm actually glad I failed out of college so many times, so people/employers don't give it the credit for producing my talent. I actually think not having a degree has helped my career.

[KingZ]

The best programmers in the US are dropouts(college and high school). I've seen several folks with undergrad and Master's degrees in Info. Systems(is that an easy major), who can't write a lick of code in any language. How is it possible to have mastered Info Systems, and not be able to write a single, solitary line of code?

This is really stupid. Info System is not computer science. Saying that IS majors can't write code, and therefore American universities offer a poor education, is a non sequitur.

[smackie9]

In the United States, "college" formally refers to a constituent part of a university. In the US, "college" and "university" are interchangeable,[1] whereas in Ireland, the UK, New Zealand, Australia, Canada and other former and present Commonwealth nations, "college" may refer to a secondary or high school, a college of further education, a training institution that awards trade qualifications, or a constituent part of a university.


What Makes a College a University?
AnswerA college can be a stand alone entity, it offers a collection of degrees and operates on it's own. A university is actually a conglomerate of colleges. You'll often find a 'college of fine arts' or a 'college of education' listed within the University. They run each college as a part of the University and share common things like building facilities, parking, resources and housing.

[BackUpOrGetStng]

This is really stupid. Info System is not computer science. Saying that IS majors can't write code, and therefore American universities offer a poor education, is a non sequitur.

Please find me an IS curriculum that doesn't require programming.

[KingZ]

Please find me an IS curriculum that doesn't require programming.

Firstly, that doesn't matter. Every curriculum requires government and history, but it usually goes in one ear and out the other. Nobody takes IS because they enjoy programming.

Secondly, the point still stands, even with CS as a major. "People take 4 years of CS, and can't code. Therefore, American universities are trash."

[BackUpOrGetStng]

Firstly, that doesn't matter. Every curriculum requires government and history, but it usually goes in one ear and out the other. Nobody takes IS because they enjoy programming.

Secondly, the point still stands, even with CS as a major. "People take 4 years of CS, and can't code. Therefore, American universities are trash."

I'm sorry nobody takes IS because they enjoy programming, but if that's the case, they shouldn't be coming to me, asking for a programming job.

Every curriculum might require Gen Ed. classes like gov't and history, but every curriculum does not require Application Development or whatever the school calls it. It's a required course specific to the major. How is giving someone a degree who can't do something from chapter 1 of a required class for that major, meaningful? Certainly it'd be a required skill for someone to be considered a MASTER.

[KingZ]

How is giving someone a degree who can't do something from chapter 1 of a required class for that major, meaningful?

You're missing the point. The fact that you've interviewed a few dozen (or even hundred) people who can't code does not necessarily imply that American universities are trash. You're failing chapter 1 in logic. What did you major in?

Also, there's a difference between computer science in an academic environment, and programming in a commercial/enterprise environment. It could also be that your technical interview questions suck; this is actually pretty likely.

[BackUpOrGetStng]

You're missing the point. The fact that you've interviewed a few dozen (or even hundred) people who can't code does not necessarily imply that American universities are trash. You're failing chapter 1 in logic. What did you major in?

Also, there's a difference between computer science in an academic environment, and programming in a commercial/enterprise environment. It could also be that your technical interview questions suck; this is actually pretty likely.

I didn't say American universities are trash because I've interviewed folks who can't code. That's just an example of how lax the education system is. It's more focused on money, than actually providing the best education, and doesn't really hold people accountable for their grades.

I don't ask technical interview questions, in the textbook sense. I ask candidates to describe what they're working on or what they've most recently worked on, and will use that as a base to ask questions and have them explain more about what they do. Then I have them write some basic code or a simple query. I've gotten blank pages from people with Master's degrees, who are supposedly writing SQL procedures for years. I understand, that a dumbass person(or 1000) doesn't make the university trash..but how the **** did they graduate with that degree? You pay your money, go to office hours or do extra credit if you need it, and you pass because the teacher feels sorry.

You point out the difference between academia and enterprise, but shouldn't the top universities in the world prepare you for enterprise?

[KingZ]

You point out the difference between academia and enterprise, but shouldn't the top universities in the world prepare you for enterprise?

Eh, not really. Even if it was a worthwhile endeavor, it's difficult to keep up. A lot of enterprise-level work requires knowledge of a lot of frameworks that evolve so quickly, the curriculum would probably end up offering outdated information by the end of the semester. Plus, there's no way to teach all of the frameworks.

Theory doesn't change much. It's going to be a long time before someone finds a more efficient way of sorting a list of unordered integers too large for memory than external merge sort, or finding the top k integers in an unsorted list than a priority queue. Being able to implement these algorithms in a language-agnostic interview is probably more valuable than having someone regurgitate the internalization of some framework or other.

[BackUpOrGetStng]

I agree that teaching all frameworks would not be possible or efficient. I'm saying you give students access to one enterprise framework, and have them implement theory on real-world projects end-to-end, so they get a feel for the setting and get to see how things are applied so they can connect with the material and retain it. I'm well aware that this or a similar approach is taken in many institutions. It's just been my observation, that actually learning the information is optional, and that's where my real quarrel with "the system" is.

By and large, the US has the best facilities compared to institutions around the world. What I think makes American degrees worth less, is that utilizing these best-of-breed facilities is merely optional and slackers/idiots can still graduate without really knowing shit. The regions I mentioned earlier, are much more rigid in their approach to education, and I think that it is reflected in the population.

My interview questions are language agnostic. I've hired C# devs that did the problem in Java/Perl/etc. or whatever, and database folks who do things in PL/SQL/Postgre/etc. They're simple things... hit an API, save the response, load into a database, or write a query to pull some data with some filters. Not difficult things we are talking about.

[basilandthyme]

You guys rock! I'm on such a learning curve here....and appreciating the different viewpoints.

[KingZ]

I probably wouldn't place too much blame on the student or the university for them not understanding the basic REST protocols or whatever right out of the gate. I could go into this further, but it's irrelevant.

We're talking about a field that's an anomaly among the various fields. There's a certain standard in the programming world because a lot of people, like me, have been programming since before their teens. These people have such a fundamental internalization of an extremely complex field with many different aspects, that nobody could really grasp in the space of 4 years.

I maintain my point that American universities are certainly among the best in the world, and saying that they're "lax", or that they suck, or whatever, because some narrow sample of people you've interviewed with IS degrees couldn't answer questions about querying a database through an API, is a fallacy at best.

Anyway, there are much better questions to ask than that. Having passed interviews at both Amazon and Google, nobody asked me about how to query APIs. Pick some out of here: http://amzn.to/1biovdS

[BackUpOrGetStng]

Again, I did not say they are lax because of a narrow sample of people in IS. I'm not talking about web services. I said they are lax because of the overall practice of giving degrees away to people who don't know the material. That applies to almost every field I can think of with the exception of medicine, and at the undergrad level, even that is questionable.

Again, I agree US institutions provide the best opportunity, but I don't think they produce the best results overall. I think they let a lot of very average and below average people walk out with degrees without knowing the material and without being prepared, and I'm talking about universities at the top. Drop down a tier, and it gets really bad. I misspoke when I referred to them as trash. The educational system, is trash, on top of being a racket, and that is what I was bringing to the OPs attention.

I've gotten through interviews with Google and Microsoft..congrats. As far as Amazon and Google's interview questions, I'm not trying to change the world. I want someone who can do or has a sufficient base to learn what I need them to do. I want to hear how they describe what they do, and see if they have some basic knowledge of what I'll need them to, as well as if they're a good fit culturally.

[KingZ]

You are such a fu​cking derp.