Human Trash

[dewilliams2]

I have every right to point out something that is wrong. And, like I said, if telling you that beating your child with a belt makes me an asshole: Bring It.

I'm done arguing with you Cog. You think what you have done is okay and there is no way to make you realize otherwise except to have you ask your daughter about it someday, if you can find the courage. I hope she forgives you, for both your sakes.

@ Vash & Miso, is beating your child with a belt legal? Somehow, I doubt it, unless you happen to live in Saudi.

Depends on state and severity of the hitting...like I keep saying...you can do this without even making a bottom red....its the noise and the shock value that drives home the point.

[IndiReloaded]

Your saying I will fail at life because my parents spanked me as a child?....its an old practice and I hardly see a bunch of failures throughout history. Many people who actually were literally "beaten" and physically abused became great successes....I don't think that has a whole lot to do with what you achieve in life....your theory holds little water....and trust me I am not failing at life and my parents never beat or physically abused me.

No, don't get the Venn diagram backwards. I'm saying that parents who have found other ways to raise reasonable children tend to raise reasonable children themselves. And when children grow up without emotional baggage (such as that caused by abusive parenting), they can focus their energies on other things and progress.

One of my grand-relatives beat his children. He was a university department chair! He was also extremely religious and that was how things were done back then.

That didn't prevent his kids from becoming successful. Tho, they internalized a lot of anger and deep resentment for the treatment and it definitely affected their ability to interact with others. Fortunately, their children all went on to become extremely successful having been raised by some very enlightened parenting methods that didn't require beatings.

I'm sorry, this is an important subject but I really have to get to work. I'll post more on this later.

[vashti]

@ Vash & Miso, is beating your child with a belt legal? Somehow, I doubt it, unless you happen to live in Saudi.

Actually, I believe it IS legal, so long as you don't leave a mark.

Though to be honest, if I witnessed a parent hitting a child, I wouldn't wait to see the bruise pop up; I would just report it and let someone else decide if it constituted abuse in a legal sense.

[dewilliams2]

No, don't get the Venn diagram backwards. I'm saying that parents who have found other ways to raise reasonable children tend to raise reasonable children themselves. And when children grow up without emotional baggage (such as that caused by abusive parenting), they can focus their energies on other things and progress.

One of my grand-relatives beat his children. He was a university department chair! He was also extremely religious and that was how things were done back then.

That didn't prevent his kids from becoming successful. Tho, they internalized a lot of anger and deep resentment for the treatment and it definitely affected their ability to interact with others. Fortunately, their children all went on to become extremely successful having been raised by some very enlightened parenting methods that didn't require beatings.

I'm sorry, this is an important subject but I really have to get to work. I'll post more on this later.

So your admitting that a child success later in life has nothing to do with how that child is disciplined?....regardless of how you disagree with incognito, you've basically contradicted yourself and I think owe him an apology for saying his daughter won't ever achieve because he is a bad father....as I have said earlier there are two schools of thought in terms of discipline but discipline is not the end all be all of parenting, if that discipline is not coupled with a loving supportive environment and education (in and out of the home) then that child will fail no matter how you discipline them.

That point seems to be overlooked....the act of disciplining your children is not what makes them productive members of society...its the lessons they learn from being disciplined and if they learn nothing then the discipline is wasted effort.

[IndiReloaded]

Depends on state and severity of the hitting...like I keep saying...you can do this without even making a bottom red....its the noise and the shock value that drives home the point.

No. It teaches that it is okay to violate another person's body to elicit a change in behaviour. The whole idea with parenting is that you want to provide lessons that will translate to their lives and interactions with others.

Hitting a child teaches them that, when someone does something 'bad', its okay to hit them. Imagine a child on a school yard extending this lesson, or later, as an adult in the work place.

If, however, you discipline a child *consistently* by removing a privilege or (when younger) removing them from the stimuli that led to the behaviour you want to extinguish, you can achieve the same behavioural result without violating their space.

In cases of emergency, or outright loss of control where you can't safely isolate them, you simply pick up the child and restrain them. Tho even that is usually more due to a lack of foresight and planning on the part of the parent. I only had to do that once and it was b/c I forgot to bring a child harness with me and he got over tired.

[IndiReloaded]

So your admitting that a child success later in life has nothing to do with how that child is disciplined?

Depends on how you define success. I gave a clear example where career success was obtained but not an interpersonal one. And no, I didn't say it had "nothing" to do with it. If you want to argue with me, try to be more precise in your language. I do not owe an apology to any one who beats their child with a belt.

Do you have children Williams? If not, you are posting from a place of ignorance, sorry.

You are also looking for ways to justify your upbringing. Do you deny you would have preferred NOT to have been spanked?

[Incognito]

Actually IndiReloaded, most states do protect a parent's right to physically discipline a child. Again, you are an asshole because you are attacking me because I don't share your view. You can wear that proudly if you want. You keep using opinion and conjecture to formulate a basis on which to attack my views. People have different opinions, you cannot change that no matter how much you insult, argue, and belittle.

Here is an excerpt from that linl that you posted:

With the omnipotent child it is the training that has been ineffective, either because the parent doesn’t know how to train, is too drained by complications of her or his own life, or has been given one of those high energy, intense kids whom any mother would have trouble rearing. This brings us to the most sorely neglected subject in child psychiatry. We cannot go on until we have paid some attention to the concept of temperament in humans.

Most of what I read centered around children who had behavorial problems and specifically the "omnipotent child" who feels entitled, and that the universe revolves around them. I don't have to deal with that because my training method (no matter how much you disdain it) works. The first line of the excerpt mentions that the condition arises because of ineffectual training. That is not the problem, in fact there is not problem besides the one you have with my methods. Next time make sure the information applies before posting a link. It makes you look foolish otherwise. Anyone can just throw a link onto a post.

[Incognito]

That point seems to be overlooked....the act of disciplining your children is not what makes them productive members of society...its the lessons they learn from being disciplined and if they learn nothing then the discipline is wasted effort.

Thank you. This is why I stated earlier that I explain why she is being disciplined (when it happens) and how she can avoid it in the future.

[IndiReloaded]

A link isn't an entire book:

With the omnipotent child it is the training that has been ineffective, either because the parent doesn’t know how to train, is too drained by complications of her or his own life, or has been given one of those high energy, intense kids whom any mother would have trouble rearing. This brings us to the most sorely neglected subject in child psychiatry. We cannot go on until we have paid some attention to the concept of temperament in humans.

The bolded part describes you perfectly, incognito. You don't seem to understand this, but you want to argue with someone who actually read and understands the entire book vs. you who just discovered a link this morning to it.

Again, I'm not the ignorant one who needs to resort to hitting his child with a belt b/c I don't have any other tools at my disposal.

Do you have anything more intelligent to add to this^? Vash has long given up, I see. I do too. It takes all kinds out there, I guess.

[dewilliams2]

Depends on how you define success. I gave a clear example where career success was obtained but not an interpersonal one. And no, I didn't say it had "nothing" to do with it. If you want to argue with me, try to be more precise in your language. I do not owe an apology to any one who beats their child with a belt.

Do you have children Williams? If not, you are posting from a place of ignorance, sorry.

You are also looking for ways to justify your upbringing. Do you deny you would have preferred NOT to have been spanked?

Well I suppose perhaps our definitions of success are two different things but if you would care to look at it from an overarching perspective then we can. While I know of very few people who have ever achieved success on all levels of their lives and had absolutely nothing that they felt they ever struggled with...I can think of examples where people were not spanked but at the same time have failed at life. My aunt Melanie's boys Toby and Jeremy....neither one were spanked as children, both are in their 30s now, can't hold a job and have kids of their own and both are bad fathers....as I said I do believe there is absolutely no correlation between success on any level in life and the way in which you were disciplined as a child....it is but one aspect of your upbringing....and you seem to continue to confuse beating a child with spanking a child.

And no, I am quite happy with the way my parents raised me. Honestly I think they did a great job. I intend to use many of their methods on my own children. Talking and educating is key...spanking reserved for the most severe of cases. Like one time I was spanked for driving away in the car at a gas station...I was 7...that warranted a spanking....I don't deny that, I would do the same to my child.

You seem to have this image in your mind of me cowering in a fetal position crying...but it wasn't like that because there is a difference between beating a child and spanking a child.

No. It teaches that it is okay to violate another person's body to elicit a change in behaviour. The whole idea with parenting is that you want to provide lessons that will translate to their lives and interactions with others.

Hitting a child teaches them that, when someone does something 'bad', its okay to hit them. Imagine a child on a school yard extending this lesson, or later, as an adult in the work place.

If, however, you discipline a child *consistently* by removing a privilege or (when younger) removing them from the stimuli that led to the behaviour you want to extinguish, you can achieve the same behavioural result without violating their space.

In cases of emergency, or outright loss of control where you can't safely isolate them, you simply pick up the child and restrain them. Tho even that is usually more due to a lack of foresight and planning on the part of the parent. I only had to do that once and it was b/c I forgot to bring a child harness with me and he got over tired.

Well with that logic, taking something away from a child teaches them to punish somebody by taking something away from them...so instead of breeding violence you'd be breeding thievery with that line of thought....once again I feel there is a logical disconnect. I only ever got in one fight in school and it was when I was a senior. A guy came up and punched me in the head...so I ran him down and beat his ass....but I never ever got in any other fight and I'm not violent at all.

I keep coming back to the point that it is not the discipline that teaches but the lesson behind the discipline.

You can smack a dog but it does not know why unless you also try to teach it why you hit it.

[vashti]

I'd like to discipline some adults with a belt. Not kids. Their brains aren't even done forming yet. They aren't entirely responsible for themselves.

[Incognito]

@ IndiReloaded: You must be related to Dr. Spock.

[Incognito]

Edit: I don't know what happened, but it is back.

[dewilliams2]

I still see the thanks tab...I didn't know it could be disabled.

[dewilliams2]

See...I just thanked you.