Human Trash

[Sonrisa]

And i like Jews...I dated one for awhile and had to pretend to be Jewish around her parents...I learned a lot....you guys have a holiday when somebody farts....I mean ya have one for everything.

wow, that is extremely rude. you must've heard your parents say that. and it does sound like you don't like Jews.

[dewilliams2]

I didn't say that my son didn't know how to push a button. I said he was wearing his seatbelt.


Well good, I'm glad you finally answered that question directly.



Last time I checked, you weren't my parent. If you want to apologize to him you are welcome to. He said plenty to both my self and Vash that is deserving of an apology right back at us. Before I even got into this thread.



LOL, no you aren't. You were hoping it would add to your argument. Sorry to disappoint you, tho you could have avoided my pointing it out by reading my post more carefully.



Its not about intelligence at that age. Its about self-control and, clearly, you didn't have it at that age. At age 7, no matter how smart you think you were, you needed to be watched. If you had been, that incident wouldn't have happened. Or it was a horrible accident. Either way, the responsibility was clearly in your parents purview.

But, sure. You and Incognito have convinced me with your oh-so-cogent arguments that I should really revisit the idea of spanking or belting my son. I mean, he's such a reasonable lad right now, just imagine how much more he could be with a bit of corporeal punishment.

Thanks. Come back when you have kids, Williams.

No...truly I am glad you were not abused as a child...I'm not the kind of person who would want somebody to be abused. I'd hope I've been here long enough that you would realize I'm not vindictive and I'm always fair and try to approach issues from every vantage point.

I am not your parent but that does not mean I cannot attempt to mediate between you and keep things civil so we can have a debate like adults. As soon as we lose the ability to control our emotions in a debate the sooner we lose focus of the issue at hand and just begin a slew of personal attacks.

As for self control, that was about the only thing I ever really did...I was a good kid. I don't know what it was...just one of those days that something came over me. Don't kid yourself....your son could be into something in half a minute...haven't you ever heard the saying kids will be kids?...kids make mistakes or we wouldn't even be having the discussion about discipline now would we?

As for telling you how to raise your child...I have never said that either way. I have said on multiple occasions there are two schools of thought. I have never said one is right or wrong. I have simply defended the one I believe in. But read back and you'll find I never told you that you were raising your son improperly or that you should spank him.. You are taking things far to personally.

And while my girlfriend daughter is not biologically mine and she is only 10 months old, I have been there since she was born and I am a father figure. We have already talked about at some point when we are in a better financial place I will marry her and adopt her daughter as mine....I also adopted my second cousin when her mother died and her father wasn't around....she was 11 at the time and she is 14 now and she lived with me 3 years before I adopted her so I have been raising her for 6 almost 7 years.

So maybe I don't have my own biological children and maybe I don't have as much experience as you...although I do not know because I couldn't say how old your son is. I guess because I don't have my own biological children my opinions don't count but truly I also don't have my own oil rig but that doesn't stop me from having and sharing my opinion on the current leak in the gulf and my overall stand on our current energy policy.

[dewilliams2]

wow, that is extremely rude. you must've heard your parents say that. and it does sound like you don't like Jews.

Are you joking? I can't tell....I didn't mean to offend...it was a joke. I apologize if I did offend...I truly don't take religion that seriously so if you do I suppose it could be offensive.

Wait now my parents are bigots?...see thats where I don't know if your joking or not...no my parents never said anything racist or antisemitic...and truly I didn't mean anything bad about it...the Jewish religion does have a lot of holidays. My point was while I was dating Rikki, I had to learn about all the holidays and it was a lot to learn and keep up with....if I had something against Jewish people do you think I would have dated one?

I'm a historian/cultural anthropologist in terms of my formal education and honestly one of the reasons why I dated her was to learn more....and because she had one green eye and one blue eye...I thought her eyes were beautiful....oh and she had a Chicago accent which made me laugh.

[VincenzoG91]

I still think spanking is on the table. It is not appropriate for everything. I was never hit with anything other than a hand. Like I said marks were never left on me and I never cowered from my parents or feared them. I know they love me.

This is where I stand on the issue. My parents spanked my sister and I, but only rarely, and the mere action of getting spanked was actually more upsetting than painful. In general, they only punished us that way for extreme misbehavior, and they always made sure that we understood we were still loved. My sister and I both turned out decently, as law-abiding college graduates with decent careers, good friends, and strong relationships with both of our parents. When my dad died in '08, we were devastated.

After many years away from it, I finally started going to church again last year. And there is this one dysfunctional family that obviously doesn't spank their kids, and the kids are horrible brats. The older kid is 4 years old, and he seems truly rotten. Last Sunday, in the middle of a sermon, he loudly told his mother that he wants to run away from home. A few weeks ago, he just got up and ran around the church hollering because he thought it was funny. Months ago, he loudly announced that he was going to lie down on the floor because the song (being sung by the church choir) was so boring. I'm sorry, but that kid is turning out crappy because his parents are doing a bad job. He acts up every week at church, because he knows that nothing will happen when he gets home. He doesn't respect his parents, the church, other people, anybody. He will probably grow up to be a sociopath, or worse.

[Sonrisa]

Are you joking? I can't tell....I didn't mean to offend...it was a joke. I apologize if I did offend...I truly don't take religion that seriously so if you do I suppose it could be offensive.

Wait now my parents are bigots?...see thats where I don't know if your joking or not...no my parents never said anything racist or antisemitic...and truly I didn't mean anything bad about it...the Jewish religion does have a lot of holidays. My point was while I was dating Rikki, I had to learn about all the holidays and it was a lot to learn and keep up with....if I had something against Jewish people do you think I would have dated one?

I'm a historian/cultural anthropologist in terms of my formal education and honestly one of the reasons why I dated her was to learn more....and because she had one green eye and one blue eye...I thought her eyes were beautiful....oh and she had a Chicago accent which made me laugh.

you are too cute

[IndiReloaded]

Okay, then I've misjudged you Williams. To you, I apologize and thank you for the argument.

As for my tongue-in-cheek comment, no worries. I also believe my parenting style works just fine.

[IndiReloaded]

Last Sunday, in the middle of a sermon, he loudly told his mother that he wants to run away from home. A few weeks ago, he just got up and ran around the church hollering because he thought it was funny. Months ago, he loudly announced that he was going to lie down on the floor because the song (being sung by the church choir) was so boring. I'm sorry, but that kid is turning out crappy because his parents are doing a bad job. He acts up every week at church, because he knows that nothing will happen when he gets home. He doesn't respect his parents, the church, other people, anybody. He will probably grow up to be a sociopath, or worse.

Show me a misbehaving child, and I will show you a home where the parents aren't getting along. Look to THAT for the real reason why that child is misbehaving. I agree, the parents are doing a bad job, but the solution isn't to hit him. Its to provide a loving *consistent* home environment.

He acted out in church b/c its probably one of the few places he could act out. That child was crying for help. What are you doing to help your fellow church-goer?

God, I love Christian values. Did I mention this?

[dewilliams2]

This is where I stand on the issue. My parents spanked my sister and I, but only rarely, and the mere action of getting spanked was actually more upsetting than painful. In general, they only punished us that way for extreme misbehavior, and they always made sure that we understood we were still loved. My sister and I both turned out decently, as law-abiding college graduates with decent careers, good friends, and strong relationships with both of our parents. When my dad died in '08, we were devastated.

After many years away from it, I finally started going to church again last year. And there is this one dysfunctional family that obviously doesn't spank their kids, and the kids are horrible brats. The older kid is 4 years old, and he seems truly rotten. Last Sunday, in the middle of a sermon, he loudly told his mother that he wants to run away from home. A few weeks ago, he just got up and ran around the church hollering because he thought it was funny. Months ago, he loudly announced that he was going to lie down on the floor because the song (being sung by the church choir) was so boring. I'm sorry, but that kid is turning out crappy because his parents are doing a bad job. He acts up every week at church, because he knows that nothing will happen when he gets home. He doesn't respect his parents, the church, other people, anybody. He will probably grow up to be a sociopath, or worse.

As much as I have said that both schools of thought work...truly we also must consider that all children are individual and what may work for one will not work for another. How old is this child? If you cannot control a child at the age of 5 you certainly cannot control them at 16. Routine and discipline is definitely in order for this child....its hard to say which would work better...personally I support a system that incorporates both.

Doing those things in church would definitely warrant a spanking in my opinion but also it sounds like his family life is out of whack and chances are he is already lost....you have to start young. We are already working with Ariana on "no" and she is 10 months.

[Junket]

Are you joking? I can't tell....I didn't mean to offend...it was a joke. I apologize if I did offend...I truly don't take religion that seriously so if you do I suppose it could be offensive.

Wait now my parents are bigots?...see thats where I don't know if your joking or not...no my parents never said anything racist or antisemitic...and truly I didn't mean anything bad about it...the Jewish religion does have a lot of holidays. My point was while I was dating Rikki, I had to learn about all the holidays and it was a lot to learn and keep up with....if I had something against Jewish people do you think I would have dated one?

I'm a historian/cultural anthropologist in terms of my formal education and honestly one of the reasons why I dated her was to learn more....and because she had one green eye and one blue eye...I thought her eyes were beautiful....oh and she had a Chicago accent which made me laugh.

What a jew hater.

[dewilliams2]

you are too cute

thank you...I know I am

[IndiReloaded]

I also don't have my own oil rig but that doesn't stop me from having and sharing my opinion on the current leak in the gulf and my overall stand on our current energy policy.

Right. I'm not saying your opinions aren't valid, but I would certainly give more weight to a geotechnical engineer's opinion on the oil leak. Tho possibly not one who was on BPs payroll. Same for me and parents who stoop to needing to hit their children to discipline them.

As much as I have said that both schools of thought work...truly we also must consider that all children are individual and what may work for one will not work for another.

Fantastic. Now we are getting someplace. If you care to go back, you will see a post to Incognito where I challenged him to describe how he tried "both schools of thought". He didn't. He went straight for the lowest, easiest path for the parent and the most damaging for the child. Until I posted that book link, he didn't even acknowledge there was another way to go about it.

Notwithstanding Incognitos silly response, if the Qwerty's in the world can manage her child without resorting to a belt, then surely the rest of should be able to manage it too.

There are too many examples of where corporal punishment damages the child to justify it. Just look at all the posters here so far with negative experiences.

How about this: do any of you posters who had an upbringing more like mine wish your parents had actually spanked you? I mean, really, I'm starting to think I've missed out somehow.

CAM? Lipp? I'm not sure who else might fit that bill. Vash could ask her kids, I suppose. But I think my point is made. None of them will say yes.

So, what point are you arguing again? That some kids *should* be spanked? That some *won't* respond to consistent discipline with out physical punishment? Which ones and how do you decide?

[dewilliams2]

As I have said previously, I support a combined system incorporating both spanking and grounding (including taking something away or making them do extra chores). Spanking should only be reserved for the most severe of offenses...as I have also said on several occasions.

I have also said there is a difference on multiple occasions and that while some people in this forum may have been beat...that doesn't mean that beating is what I am talking about....you have yet to acknowledge there is a difference....perhaps you don't see one but I do.

I've also said I was never defending Incognito...simply trying to keep the personal attacks out of the debate. As I've said as soon as we start making personal attacks we lose the ability to truly have a debate in a fair and level headed manner.

As for your questions...yes I do believe every child is different and some respond differently to different forms of punishment as everybody is an individual.

How do you decide? With your best judgment...raising a child is not a science. If you consistently punish a child by grounding them yet they keep repeating the same offense perhaps its time to change your approach because they are obviously not learning their lesson.

But as I have also said the lesson is what must come across and if that is lost then the punishment is for nothing. So many people simply are not fit to be parents and that is how we even got on this discussion. So many people do not get the lesson through either because they do not try or they approach it from a poor direction.

[IndiReloaded]

Well, Williams. I will invite you to consider that resorting to a spanking will only arise b/c a parent has lost control of the situation. I will further tell you directly that my son has never been spanked and he seems to be quite a reasonable lad. He's in his preteens now, so we'll see what comes out in the wash.

While I don't consider a paddling as evil as some things a parent can do (even without beating them), I do see it as on that slippery slope. Hitting your child with an object, such as a belt, would qualify as abuse.

I remember once my son was deliberately antagonizing me by touching something I had explicitly asked him not to. Of course, it was my fault for not giving him something to sufficiently engage him. Still, I had asked him not to touch and he did anyway.

I tackled him and tickled him until he begged for mercy. He was startled, I daresay as much as a spanking would have startled him. He got the same message but at the same time was reassured of my love and care for him. I could have made it a negative learning experience, I was certainly frustrated enough, but I didn't.

You are only limited by your imagination in solving these kinds of problems. Beware of reaching for the lowest common solution simply b/c its the easiest.

[dewilliams2]

Personally I don't think it is necessarily a case of a person losing control in order for them to resort to spanking...its only reserved for the worst offenses and as I have said even if your son has never really done anything major that doesn't mean that a poor choice on his part could put him into a bad spot really quick. Surely you remember being a kid and being with your friends and doing something stupid you know you shouldn't have but knew was wrong and did it anyways.

I said I support a mix of both schools but I see no reason to limit myself a tool but with that said I have also said I don't think a child should be hit with an object other than your hand.

We are going in circles. It is clear we disagree and neither of us are going to change our stand...I have repeated myself now multiple times as have you. I don't think your wrong or right...as I have said there is not right way to raise a child...there are multiple roads that can be taken and a multitude of factors go into the outcome.

[VincenzoG91]

Show me a misbehaving child, and I will show you a home where the parents aren't getting along. Look to THAT for the real reason why that child is misbehaving. I agree, the parents are doing a bad job, but the solution isn't to hit him. Its to provide a loving *consistent* home environment.

He acted out in church b/c its probably one of the few places he could act out. That child was crying for help. What are you doing to help your fellow church-goer?

God, I love Christian values. Did I mention this?

I forgot to mention that I'm an agnostic. I've been an atheist for a long time, but I've been thinking things over since my dad died. My gut instinct is when people die, they are just dead. But for my dad's sake, I really hope there is a heaven.

As for my small fellow church-goer, I honestly think that some consistent cause-and-effect conditioning, including at least one spanking, would do him wonders. I'm unfortunately not allowed to help in that regard.