Help...is this relationship doomed?

[Rosebud]

My last comment to you is this: I'm talking about your replies to my posts of advice for other people on this forum. I could care less what you think of me or anything about your life. I sent a PM to tell you to lay off! Don't flatter yourself! And I love how arrogant people call other people arrogant because they really don't know anything about the topic!

I can give advice on this subject because I have been there! I have had a few traumatic experiences and I have dated men that have been through them as well, and I'm in a serious relationship which I have done a lot of work to make it what it is. You could never possibly imagine anything like that whether you have dated them or not...it's not that simple.

So now that I have that off my chest, where were we river?

[Mish]

Easy there Pickle, noone likes a cranky punching bag.

We don't need to know your life story, what women you dated and why you think you have a magical abillity to tell a person's "type" in less then 10 seconds. You were caught red handed misreading river's information and giving out false feedback. Deal with it like a man

[river1731]

Hi Rosebud, Hugo, and Mishanya,

Thank you all for your concern and willingness to wade through this relationship of mine. I think you are all doing an excellent job of sizing up the situation correctly given that you're not here in person to see what is going on firsthand. There is probably a little more information that would help paint a clearer picture of the circumstances I am dealing with, and I'll try to answer some of the extra questions while listing them. Here are a few:

1. Christine's inability to communicate on a deep level (not unwillingness): In the past, I have tried my darndest to initiate communication with Christine on some fairly sensitive relationship/life issues that impact us greatly. A laundry list of these subjects would include whether she would consider counselling to recover from her sexual assault in her teen years, the effect of lack of affection and sex on me and how it could be related to still being stuck in victim mode (and not 'survivor' mode), her inability to be open and vulnerable with me, my sense that she is no listening very well to what I have to say, her lack of eye contact when we do converse, etc., etc., etc., the list could go on. However, the predominant response that I receive from Christine is............nothing........plain nothing. She doesn't know what to say. She literally can do nothing more than look down and be silent and give me "yes" or "no" answers to most of my questions. When I relay to her that I feel that I am driving the conversation, that it feels one-way and that it is important for both of us to be actively participating in the conversation, she says she doesn't know what to say, and I believe she is being truthful. Her "deep communication" relationship skills simply don't exist within her, and it often feels that I am talking to a teenaged girl in these situations (actually, many teenaged girls would have superior skills in this area than Christine). On numerous occasions when I've tried to find out more about her trauma, she has become even more silent and then expresses a desire to not talk about it, and I guess this is understandable (but I can't help but feel that if she had recovered from this, that she would be able to freely talk about it, but then again, maybe I'm wrong). Whatever the case, she plainly lacks some very very important mechanism for talking about big issues, and Im almost beginning to wonder whether she has a personality disorder of some kind. Perhaps it is just the nature of her personality and the way that she was brought up, as she is extremely left-brained and probably doesn't have a creative bone in her body.

2. When I do bring up the subject of the "state of our relationship", time and time again she responds to this with genuine surprise, and reports that "everything is fine" (she never reports otherwise). This type of answer totally surprises me because for me to bring this up to her, it is because something signigicant is bothering me.

3. On more than one occasion in the past, even if there is a slight hint of anger or frustration in my voice, she won't face up to it and usually walks out of our home for a few hours. She simply cannot tolerate the slightest expression of anger from me, and it feels like I'm walking on eggshells. It's very frustrating for me because my reason for using a louder voice is to convey the importance of the subject matter to her and to allow me to speak passionately about the issue. And please make no mistake....what I don't do is use profanities, nor throw a temper tantrum. My only objective is to engage her in a healthy and slightly heated debate about important relationship matters. To make matters worse, about 50% of the time during these occasions, she will say "I'm such a *****, and I don't care for your feelings!", just prior to walking out. Sometimes it sounds as if she is saying something that she really believes.

4. Her "love language" may be different from mine. My preferred love language would definitely be affection and touch, while I think hers is probably in the form of thoughtful deeds and gestures. On a recent trip away without me, she made sure she bought some Christmas gift items for my parents, while she bought me a very nice clothing item. She is also an excellent cook and goes out of her way to ensure that I have a nice dinner prepared or stored in the freezer. That being said, I probably look after fixing my own dinners about 50% of the time. Overall, I see Christine as being more thoughtful and generous than me in the area of doing kind gestures for people around her. However, I would rather have her give me the gift of listening and communication in place of some of these gestures.....it would be worth infinitely more to me.

5. Tonight she is out with, you guessed it, Dianne. Just before she left, she told me that Dianne had just purchased the exact same purse that Christine bought last week because Dianne liked what Christine had bought so much. Now if this little development is not indiciative of some kind of freaky dynamic between the two of them, I don't know what is. Rosebud and Mishanya, is this normal for best friend girlfriends to do this sort of thing? Am I reading too much into this? A male friend of mine thinks that this particular example of Dianne turning around and buying the exact same purse as Christine is absolutely not healthy or normal.

6. Christine knew Dianne fairly well before we met, but has become much closer since having started work at the same hospital as Dianne.

7. If I were to ask Christine what she wants out of this relationship, I am pretty sure she would be hestitant in answering. The only answers that she would be able to scrounge up would be "marriage and kids", but then I could turn around and ask her "ok, so what do you want out of marriage", and I know for a fact that she wouldn't know what to say (see response #1 above).

8. Christine is from the midwest and has very healthy and family-oriented values. She loves her parents and her siblings, and has a wide circle of friends scattered around the country. She absolutely loves kids and almost becomes one herself when playing with them......actually she does become one when she plays with them, and her manner of conduct and exuberance almost makes her unrecognizable.

9. I am not sure to what extent I am willing to look past the lack of sexual connection. Part of me is fully aware that this aspect of a relationship eventually falls by the wayside, and it is important to see beyond the desire for sex in order to work towards a successful lifelong marriage.

10. Christine is very attractive. On a scale of 1 to 10, I would say a 9, whereas for me, I'd rank myself around a 7.

I hope that I haven't exhausted all of you very generous people with my tales of relationship woe, and am super grateful for your concern and extra efforts to understand and counsel my predicament.

Based on this extra information, are there any other new insights that you might have? Thank you very much. You all deserve some kind of degree on counselling psychology for trying to understand this relationship, that is if you don't already have one!

[Hugo Pickle]

I raised the issue of the lack of sex and ended up discovering that Christine really does not like sex, however she is not----I repeat, not----a lesbian

In short, Christine's intimate communication skills are extremely poor, and the problem is that I yearn for having a rich and emotionally connected conversation with my primary partner. For whatever reason, she is feels very uncomfortable discussing the "important stuff" with me.

and it seems that whatever few conversations I am able to have with Christine, she always brings up Dianne, almost as if that is where her energies and focus lie.

It's getting to the point where I sometimes feel that Christine now talks to me with the same conversational style that she uses with Dianne, almost as if she can't distinguish which person she is having the intimate relationship with. It is extremely bizarre

I just can't see how their friendship is a healthy one, with all of the constant contact and visitations, and it seems as if Dianne is projecting her desire for an intimate relationship onto Christine, and Christine is allowing herself to be drawn in because of her own issues. It seems extremely co-dependent.

He has tried to talk to her many times, what he hasn’t tried to talk to her about is her friend. They have had problems “talking” before the “friend” got involved. Which is why further attempts to “communicate” with her will not work. You tell me I didn’t read it right, no I read it right. He has tried to talk to her many times. Just not about her “friend”. If he tries to talk to her about her “friend” when she refuses to talk about their ongoing intimacy problems, then what makes you think she will finally talk about things with him.

Man and you tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about.

[Hugo Pickle]

I apparently typed that last response while you were also typing yours, I just read your last post so I will make another one, but for short, you see what I mean about the matching cloths and stuff, I bet they do the other things like hold hands and stuff but let me make a better post about it

[Rosebud]

I Know your trying to help her but in all honestly she does need professional help. It sounds like she has completely shut down and doesn't know how to find her way back. But like I said earlier she is giving this one person all she can (dianne) because she feels this is the one person she can trust (whether she's happy with or not..your a guy). Which could also be why she can't to you (because your a man). She probably ahs a lot of fears that she doesn't know how to handle so she walks away or avoids them. I think it's very key that she shuts down this much. I really think she has an emotional barrier that she is not willing to break.

Yes it is normal for girls to buy the same things or wear similar things because they like them. It's like a sisterly thing. Don't look too much into that area of things. I personally don't buy the exact same thing as others because I like my individuality and like to be different. It is very normal..some are followers and some are leaders.

On the note of asking ehr what she wants and her reply...could you be able to have that kind of relationship with ehr down the road? I mean if that's how she feels and this is how you feel, I really think she is who she is and she's not going to change unless she gets professional help or does something about herself. but it shouldn't be for you it should be for her, to better herself as a person. After that she may be able to aheva healthy relationship but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

After all this, and I'm glad your able to express yourself so well by the way...but in advice you have to realize all these things are how she is. You ahve tried talking to her, she can't respond..you ahve tried working through soem things but you yourself even said you feel like your walking on eggshells. So I say you need to figure out if all this is something your willing to be in the long haul for and deal with all these as they are because I don't see them changing. Or say your peace to her and tell her you just need more and move on. You shouldn't feel bad for doingt hat either becasue she has pushed you so far away and she can't even see what she's doing to you or doesn't want to. I don't thinks he looks at it that way but This is something she really needs to see a professional about becasue it's affecting her whole life and everything involved in it.

I'm sorry all this happened to you. You really do need someone who can fulfill your needs and vice versa. I think personally this would be too much for one person to take on to try to mend the relationship since it's not you that is causing it. And without her putting forth any effort to listen or speak her mind she's not willing to adjust anything. Could you handle the relationship staying like this forever?

[Mish]

He has tried to talk to her many times, what he hasn’t tried to talk to her about is her friend. They have had problems “talking” before the “friend” got involved. Which is why further attempts to “communicate” with her will not work. You tell me I didn’t read it right, no I read it right. He has tried to talk to her many times. Just not about her “friend”. If he tries to talk to her about her “friend” when she refuses to talk about their ongoing intimacy problems, then what makes you think she will finally talk about things with him.

Man and you tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about.

Hugo, those are all character descriptions of Christine's personality. Yes I acknowledge that she is not very communicative, BUT this doesn't change the fact that our friend river still doesn't need to have a very long conversation about his own feelings and how this relationship will reach a dead end if things continue as they are (Which he still by the way hasn't done as you have falsely assumed).

River, as suggested before, without any ultimatums if you raise the fact that if things continue the way they are at the moment then the relationship may end because you are not satisfied from it there will be a definite reaction, either:

1. She takes these issues on board and will try to change the situation for the better, maybe see a therapist, open up and cut down on her excessive contact with the friend OR
2. She will tell you that you have to accept her for who she is and if you are not willing to then the road ends.

There is no other way out of this as far as I can see it. Wish you best of luck

[SchmoozieQ]

Yes it is normal for girls to buy the same things or wear similar things because they like them. It's like a sisterly thing. Don't look too much into that area of things. I personally don't buy the exact same thing as others because I like my individuality and like to be different. It is very normal..some are followers and some are leaders.

uhhhhh ... it is NORMAL for teenage girls and for pre-teen girls to do these things... it's not sisterly when you're in your freaking 30's. It's weird.

Reading this stuff makes me feel like I'm in highschool...

River... seriously - she needs some therapy. Anyone who has been through what she has needs to get some therapy to heal... otherwise it's just a scar waiting to be picked at... It's honorable and noble that you want to help her, but what you have with her isn't a healthy relationship - nor will it ever be until she is healthy on her own. She needs to get herself healthy and not have to worry about meeting your needs along the way. If you can wait for her, then do it... but if not - move on River. Just don't be an @ss about it. (like Hugo would....ha ha ha... just a jab at your expense Hugo... sorry... okay, not really... I'm still laughing. I guess that makes me an @ss, huh)

[Hugo Pickle]

If she is doing anything like the last two women I dated that this reminds me of then I would guess that they do all kinds of things together or will soon. One girl had a female roommate that she lived with that always had to be around. Even when we were having sex in her bedroom she wanted the other girl at least in the house, and never locked the door to the room. She did close the door though. The strange thing was that every time I tried to talk to her about things she would leave the room and say “I got to get something to drink” or some other excuse to leave. It was only later that I realized that she always wanted her friend around just to be able to talk to me about things.

I honestly wasn’t with her long enough to figure out more things. At the time it all just pissed me off and I just never went back, didn’t even talk to her about it but just started going out with my friends and never called. She never called either, I moved to a new city before having the “chance run in” like other times with other people I have dated.

I wish I could give you more advice and stuff. I guess the best I could say is be honest with her and get what you want and need out of the relationship or lose it. I know that I am not as understanding and accommodating of things as other people, and I am working on that, but at the same time, It’s your life too man, if she isn’t doing her part then move on, do you really want to keep someone like that. I never did and I don’t regret letting those 2 relationships go either. As I see it now I am better off.

[vashti]

Hi River - I haven't read all of the responses on this thread because there are too many of them (but I did read RoseB's and Hugo's fight, and I am on RoseB's side) but I wanted to offer another perspective about this friendship of your gf's in case it hasn't been addressed yet.

I think that people seek out qualities in different types of people in order to have their own personal needs met. Obviously you cannot be everything to your girlfriend, and this girl is meeting some needs that you can't fill. I don't mean to say you are flawed or not enough, etc., only that you probably are just meeting different needs for her.

I am married, and I have lots of sisters. I am extremely close to my sisters, and there are certain things that frankly no man can relate to in the same way a woman can with regards to being a woman. I talk to my husband about some things, and to my sisters about others, depending on what my own needs are. It's nothing personal.

I wonder if you might simply be jealous of their close connection, which by the way, I don't know that I would call co-dependent (I consider that term to carry a negative association thanks to pop-psychology) as much as inter-dependent.

[Rosebud]

uhhhhh ... it is NORMAL for teenage girls and for pre-teen girls to do these things... it's not sisterly when you're in your freaking 30's. It's weird.

Well I tend to disagree, my mother who is 63 liked a sweater her daughter in law had so she found out where she bought it and bought one similar to it (same style different color). It's very normal for woman of all ages to do this, just becasue you may not does not mean it's not normal. There's not freaky about it. If you like something you buy it...there's nothign wrong with it. Again, it has to do with liking the same things.

And thank you Vashti!

River, What is it you really want to do here? I mean I know you love her and would want to work things out. But at this point, knowing these things may never change..what are you wanting to do right now about all of this?

[river1731]

River, What is it you really want to do here? I mean I know you love her and would want to work things out. But at this point, knowing these things may never change..what are you wanting to do right now about all of this?

I just want someone to tell me what to do. I feel so blind towards these types of things most of the time. I don't know whether it's a case of me not knowing how good I've got it, and that I'd be crazy not to marry this gal, or whether it's a disaster, and that I should get out asap. It's like i can't tell white from black, nor black from white......they both look the same. I also worry that it would be typical of a personality quirk of mine to subject myself to hard circumstances, as I am very stubborn and it's normal for me to "endure" things, whether it be a 20 mile run, or a less than perfect job. When faced with adversity, I choose to face it and beat it (or at least try to), rather than run away from it.

Crunch time is coming pretty soon, as she wants and expects a ring very soon, and I need to get to the bottom of how I feel. Thanks for your digging and concern Rosebud......you rock.

[Rosebud]

LOL...thanks River!

Ok well lets' pick this apart... Nobody can tell you what to do. You ahve to find how you feel and do it for yourself. Your blind because your confused on all this. Do you want all the things she has not given you? Or can you live without any of them? I look at things the same way as you, I fight before I give up. So..what else can you do? She won't talk to you really, but do you think if you sat her down and told her if she didn't work on these things you would leave her, would make her realize what's going on?

So with what you said...really think of these questions and weigh the pros and cons and figure out what your willing to live with and without and then what you need to do about your feelings on those topics. I'll be glad to help as much as I can...but you have to figure out what to do on your own, we can only help you pick things apart not mend totally!

[clynn]

I agree with what vashti has to say about this subject. Good stuff.

Hi River - I haven't read all of the responses on this thread because there are too many of them (but I did read RoseB's and Hugo's fight, and I am on RoseB's side) but I wanted to offer another perspective about this friendship of your gf's in case it hasn't been addressed yet.

I think that people seek out qualities in different types of people in order to have their own personal needs met. Obviously you cannot be everything to your girlfriend, and this girl is meeting some needs that you can't fill. I don't mean to say you are flawed or not enough, etc., only that you probably are just meeting different needs for her.

I am married, and I have lots of sisters. I am extremely close to my sisters, and there are certain things that frankly no man can relate to in the same way a woman can with regards to being a woman. I talk to my husband about some things, and to my sisters about others, depending on what my own needs are. It's nothing personal.

I wonder if you might simply be jealous of their close connection, which by the way, I don't know that I would call co-dependent (I consider that term to carry a negative association thanks to pop-psychology) as much as inter-dependent.

[rcia]

Nice try. You are a hell of a guy. I respect the fact that you were so willing to help Christine through her dysfunction. Now it's time for Christine to either come to the plate, by either getting help for herself or start having a real relationship with you, like:sex with you, communicate with you and start to "act" like she is willing to put some effort forth in this relationship to make it work.
As I see, you have been extremely accomodating. What about your needs? Do they matter? You have given Christine 2 years of being really understanding. Now, she has to "understand" that if she doesn't make the effort to give you what you want too, then you have a decision to make. Enough is enough. You've been generously nice with your life and time. You've put this part of your life on hold long enough, so now you can begin to take the steps to get a good, solid, loving, sexual relationship with or without Christine.
Make a decision about how you want your life to look. What kind of relationship have you always wanted? Go after what you want, if you can't find it here then do yourself a favor and move on so you can have what you want out of life...Warm Wishes