Manning up in my relationship?

[IndiReloaded]

I like a man who can be a man. Noone likes a wimp.

However, I also like a man who knows when to step aside & let me be the dominant one and can do it without feeling his balls have been removed. Particularly when I am the expert. Especially when, if he doesn't, he then actually stands of good chance of having them handed to him. Its a sign of intellect, IMO, not weakness. Efficient use of available resources. I don't have this problem in relationships, but have had it happen in business. But I think many women think this way in LTRs as well.

I agree that being too 'caveman' can lapse into 'control freak' territory, which will cause problems w/headstrong partners. 'Caveman' may be cool to 'get the girl' but it gets boring after a while & becomes equated with 'insecure'. Yes, that right. For many women, 'male insecurity' equals 'inability to sometimes submit to his woman's better judgment'. Otherwise known as the time-honoured "yes, dear".

Ultimately, you want a true partnership where each has understood areas of strength & weakness where one defers to the other b/c its agreed upon that one person is stronger in that area. But its not a 'master-servant' type relationship, its simply the same reason you don't visit your doctor to get your taxes done. Doesn't make you respect your accountant any less b/c they can't do surgery.

[IndiReloaded]

If I ever have one, I'll make sure to arm her with all the right tools she'll need to seperate all the scum from the worthy one. She'll know all the patterns, she'll be able to see through all the intents and she'll know what leads where

I read these posts for exactly the same reason for my son. How to separate the wheat from the chaff. I hope he uses his 'power' wisely.

[Mish]

I like a man who can be a man. Noone likes a wimp.

However, I also like a man who knows when to step aside & let me be the dominant one and can do it without feeling his balls have been removed. Particularly when I am the expert. Especially when, if he doesn't, he then actually stands of good chance of having them handed to him. Its a sign of intellect, IMO, not weakness. Efficient use of available resources. I don't have this problem in relationships, but have had it happen in business. But I think many women think this way in LTRs as well.

And this is what I meant when I said a good leader will know when to let others lead. A dominant man is not the one who simply takes control over everything and points his finger. He is the man who knows the best outcome for himself and those around him in every situation. If situation requires skills he doesn't have then he will submit that situation to the person who does have those skills. There's a lot more under description of dominance than just sheer conquering brutality. It's knowledge, understanding, problem solving, solution seeking, harmonizing, empathy, initiative, taking charge when neccessary, intuition into what's appropriate, leadesrhsip skills. Those are the sings of true dominance. This is what I understand under description of "alpha male"

Ultimately, you want a true partnership where each has understood areas of strength & weakness where one defers to the other b/c its agreed upon that one person is stronger in that area. But its not a 'master-servant' type relationship, its simply the same reason you don't visit your doctor to get your taxes done. Doesn't make you respect your accountant any less b/c they can't do surgery.

That's true. And I didn't mean it in the way that one is the master and the other is servant. But that one has a better capacity to lead and have initiative into which way to go than the other, while the other has better capacity to follow. It becomes a lot more complicated when two dominant partners try to fit through negotiation into one of these roles, because it's always a win / loose situation for one or the other, when in a good partnership it should always be win / win.

[IndiReloaded]

He is the man who knows the best outcome for himself and those around him in every situation.

FYI, this is also the definition of a control freak^. Its not the person who *knows*, its the person who is open to the best outcome for himself & others.

It's knowledge, understanding, problem solving, solution seeking, harmonizing, empathy, initiative, taking charge when neccessary, intuition into what's appropriate, leadesrhsip skills.

Yes, but you left out 'seeking consensus', which is what makes the difference b/t confident & controlling. Harmonizing? That would fit if thats how you meant it.

[IndiReloaded]

It becomes a lot more complicated when two dominant partners try to fit through negotiation into one of these roles, because it's always a win / loose situation for one or the other, when in a good partnership it should always be win / win.

There are pros & cons to dual dominant partnerships. Again, it depends on how comfortable one is (or isn't) with a strong partner. Its not always win/lose. Only if one or both decide to see it that way. Perspective.

Personally, I can't imagine being in a relationship where I don't have confidence in my partner being able to 'have my back'. And I know a lot of men who feel the same way. Usually, these men had strong mother role models. Not every guy wants a doll to look after. Some I know find it outright uncomfortable.

[Mish]

FYI, this is also the definition of a control freak^. Its not the person who *knows*, its the person who is open to the best outcome for himself & others.

I think you are differentiating between "knowing" and "achieving". Yes, should always be open to achieving the right outcome for self and others. Knowing the best outcome means seeing beyond the immediate situation, which direction the situation should be taken for the posibility of this best outcome to be achievable. That's also dominance.

Yes, but you left out 'seeking consensus', which is what makes the difference b/t confident & controlling. Harmonizing? That would fit if thats how you meant it.

Yup that would fit

There are pros & cons to dual dominant partnerships. Again, it depends on how comfortable one is (or isn't) with a strong partner. Its not always win/lose. Only if one or both decide to see it that way. Perspective.

If both partners are dominant then not being dominant is a direct loss. This comes down to negotiation, compromise, I do this, but next time you do that, is me doing this equal to you doing that? It's win / loose and always a tiring negotiation. Fundamentaly these relationships are a lot more prone to failure than the standard dominant / submissive roles where both partners are happy with their roles in the relationship and don't have to constantly bicker of who takes charge of what.

Personally, I can't imagine being in a relationship where I don't have confidence in my partner being able to 'have my back'. And I know a lot of men who feel the same way. Usually, these men had strong mother role models. Not every guy wants a doll to look after. Some I know find it outright uncomfortable.

And looking for a doll to look after is entirely not anyone's goal. For example, my last fling earned a lot more than me, she looked after herself, she was an independent strong woman who was totally submissive and looking for a strong lead. Being submissive is within personality it doesn't dictate social status, habits, personal characteristic or place in life.

[Mish]

So just wanted to add. In the end a lot (if not most) of women want to submit. After all, it's the girls who submit to guys advances in the end and not the other way around. They just want to be dominated skillfully. They want to see skill, attraction, initiative, leadership, social cohesiveness, drive. After all, not so long ago all of these were part of the human survival mechanism. It's guys job to demonstrate all of this and if done right then everything else is history

[Prerequisite]

My apologies for throwing this conversation off, but I have a few more questions.

Will it take time for her to open up with me/way of getting her to open up with me? I initiate the conversations and she answers/responds to questions, but it seems like she is holding something back to some extent. Or like she is scared of something...I loosened the mood up by keeping her laughing and holding (with some periods with kissing) her the whole time she was over last night while we watched television. In the past (in my insecurity phase), I told her "You know that if there is anything you need to tell me, you can right?" and she said "Yeah...I know". I know she has been with a number of guys in the past, but those relationships didn't last long to my knowledge.

Not that this really matters, I only cared to an extent but, she answered her phone while she was over, and I guess the person asked what she was doing, and she said "Nothing, just watching tv". Do people usually say something to the extent of, "Nothing, just watching tv with blah blah blah"? Again, it didn't bother me, was just curious (and a question out of boredom).

Oh, and I have a good piece of news, I did your method GrkScorp, of asking about prom and she said yes

[Mish]

Will it take time for her to open up with me? I initiate the conversations and she answers/responds to questions, but it seems like she is holding something back to some extent.

Try not to ask many questions, they are not a good way to hold a conversation. They end up coming off as intrusive. Talk about stuff, like you would with a friend. Stories are always a good way to build comfort (something interesting preferably).

If you find conversations are reaching a complete dead end, up and leave before they hit the wall. "Sorry, I forgot to do something, bye."

[vashti]

Mish, no offense, but you sound like a nightmare for a female with an IQ above 100. Way too controlling.... it reminds me of your car radio incident.

Prerequisite, she just sounds nervous and insecure. Give it some time for trust to develop and her comfort level to increase.

[GrkScorp]

Mish, no offense, but you sound like a nightmare for a female with an IQ above 100. Way too controlling.... it reminds me of your car radio incident.

Mish.. nevermind that..

Mish is a dream come true beyond her wildest imaginations for women with an IQ under 100..

And for women with an IQ of 100+, he's the type of guy they couldn't even dream of having allthogether.. simply unreal..

It's like an onion.. he has layers.. the caveman layer is just the surface.. but unlike actual caveman guys.. Mish has many more layers to him.. so when you peal past the first layer.. there's an understanding and intelligent guy who is still strong and powerful.. when you peal past that.. there's a considerate and sensitive guy.. when you peal past that.. there's a supportive and considerate guy who is secure in himself and knows when to hand over "control" when his partner really knows better.. and there are much deeper layers which go beyond the purposes of this topic..

Now, there's always a power-struggle for this reason in a relationship.. Women want a man to be in control.. because there's so much pressure and negatives to deal with for the person in control.. and the benefits are largely enjoyed by the person who is following.. But the person following starts to feel something interesting creep in.. the lack of the ability to claim credit for anything in the relationship.. So the power-struggle begins "no, I want to drive!".. Looking for any reason to take credit.. but in the 21st Century.. both sexes are equal.. guys cannot claim that they are better providers anymore than women can claim they are better parents.. And it all feeds into the need for both people in the relationship to feel special, needed, respected, and take credit for putting something of value into the relationship..

This is why the fashion designer I was seeing was so miserable.. Her husband was loaded (LOADED).. with a capital "L".. she had women taking care of the kids, she had him paying the bills, and she couldn't even feel like she was making him happy sexually, because he made it clear to her that he was cheating on her with other women, and that she was free to do the same if she wanted.. This woman had absolutely no way of feeling good about herself, feeling like she was giving something of value to someone, to her husband, to her kids, to someone..

So, that's very important in a relationship.. to not only be able to know when to step back and let the person who should be in control be in control.. If you wife is a doctor.. know when to let her have control of what medication to buy or what food to get for the house (unless you're a cook, good luck there).. If your husband's an accountant, I know a great divorce attorney.. i'm just kidding.. but we get the point.. But it's not only about realizing who ACTUALLY should have control.. but also when to just LET the other person have some control, just to make them feel good about themselves.. it's important.. very important.. to have the other person feel needed, like they are adding something of value into the relationship..

Let her feel smart, like she can take care of you, like she can please you sexually, like she's funny, like she has interesting things to say, like she's a great mother, like she's a great wife, like she can contribute financially to the household and it helps, like she can add a valuable opinion to changes around the house, etc.. all of that is important.. This is why the women, and rightfully so, feel a strong objection to the rather vague language that's been used when we said "control".. it's very easy to cross the line and just take control of everything.. making the other person feel like they aren't doing sh*t in the relationship.. that there's no reason for them to be there..

This is why you often hear NYC JAPs say things like "I don't think I could ever date someone better-looking than me" or Guidettes say "It's just really uncomfortable to be around someone who just makes you feel stupid all the time.. You want someone smart, but not so smart that you just feel like you know nothing in front of him".. or LIGs say "If i'm dating someone who's this amazing person, and who can do almost everything on his own, better than me, and is better than me in every way, nearly perfect.. Why would he want to date someone like me exactly, you know? I don't think I could date someone who's too perfect"..

Last Case: (Ben)

- Ben suffers from EMED (Extreme male ego disorder).. If I get a girl's number when we're out, he MUST get two or three numbers.. I honestly don't mind.. I think it keeps him sharp.. but there was a girl he was dating who worked for JP Morgan.. They were both baseball fans, and the only baseball Ben has seen is through his MLB games and on TV.. This girl was in charge of giving out gifts/promotions/blah blah/tickets/etc to employees.. In short, she would get season tickets, (which are in amazing seats) for all Yankee and Mets games.. Normally she would take out clients, or give them to other employees to use, but this could have been Ben's! She knew the team managers, some of the players knew her by name.. she was pretty on top of things.. So, there was some small little dispute over some baseball statistics.. Ben thought he was right because it said so on MLB.. she thought she was right because she knew the actual people! Turns out Ben was right.. but it also turns out that they never talked again after they realized who was right.. And he never got such seats again, or ever got to meet the players and managers again.. So, the moral of the story is.. it's not about being right.. it's very important to just step back and let the other person feel like they're right once in a while.. And, both baseball fans, but you know what.. he should have just let her feel like she knew more about baseball than him.. it was clearly something she prided herself on.. he sould have let her have that sense of control over that topic.. it's really not a big deal.. and this is the type of situation that the women are warning of.. "control-freak"

But, that's not Mish..

Best,

GrkScorp

[GrkScorp]

Oh, and I have a good piece of news, I did your method GrkScorp, of asking about prom and she said yes

Ahh.. that's why I come on here.. for news like that..

[GrkScorp]

"You know that if there is anything you need to tell me, you can right?" and she said "Yeah...I know"

That just shows.. me.. that she has something she wants to talk about.. but doesn't feel comfortable enough talking about it yet.. the "Yeah.. I know" answer is actually a defensive answer, to try and change the subject.. to try and take attention away from it.. It just exposes her frame of mind.. called an "unconscious spill-over"

Just as a side-note, if there was REALLY nothing she wanted to talk about, her answer would have been more like.. "Yeah I know.. why? Do you think there's something i'm not telling you?".. an investigation to why you feel that way.. because she wants the relationship to be in good standing.. but she can't think to that level, because her mind is too busy being defensive..

[vashti]

Mish is a dream come true beyond her wildest imaginations for women with an IQ under 100..

I agree. They may NEED someone to control them.

"control-freak" But, that's not Mish..

Unless you know about the radio incident, you don't know what you are talking about.

EDIT: I am trying out a new system for your posts, Grk... I am reading the first couple of lines, and the last coupe of lines, so if you have anything important to say, try to say it right away or sum it up in the end, please.

[GrkScorp]

Will it take time for her to open up with me/way of getting her to open up with me?

Will it take time? It depends on how you go about it.. but unless the change occurs such that the time before the change and the time after the change is (0).. then, yes.. it will take time.. Even for that message to reach the brain and get processed.. takes time.. but hopefully not that much time.. which is why it really depends how you go about it..

Way of getting her to open up with you?

That again depends on how you want her to open up with you.. Let's say you want to try anal sex for example.. You wouldn't go about it by saying.. "How do you feel about anal sex?".. that's very direct, she may feel uncomfortable about it, feeling like you're judging her, etc.. Instead you might try something along the lines of.. "I was taking the train today and this woman had a necklase so big, it looked like it was made out of anal beeds" (she knows where anal beeds belong, and you can see her reaction towards the thought as either positive or negative.. and dig deeper accordingly, she can also find this as a chance to talk about it indirectly.. without directly bringing herself into the conversation.. she can remain detached and express her honest "general view" on the topic)

This form of indirect questioning relies on the transative propety.. If a=b & b=c, then a=c.. So instead of talking directly about (B) to see something about (C).. you can instead be indirect and talk about (A), because it's very related to (B), but non-invasive.. and you can gauge for her honest opinion about (C)..

Trial lawyers for instance don't want to ask jurors directly if they believe in the death penalty (because they would most likely not get an honest answer).. But if they ask something like.. "Do you think it's fair for a 30 year-old man to be mugged, because he's not allowed to carry a gun with him?".. then the lawyer can get a feel for the juror's honest opinion about gun control.. If the juror thinks it isn't fair, and you investigate further to reveal his reason.. you can see that he doesn't support gun control, and people who don't support gun control by in-large support the death penalty.. So a=b=c=d.. you just got an honest gauge for (d) without asking directly about (d)..

Aside from indirectly gauging for her honest feelings towards something.. Try to increase her level of comfort around you..

For instance.. let's just say that the issue is oral sex.. (i'm not saying it is.. but let's just say, for the sake of making an example, it was).. It's worse to come in with the attitude of "Do I make you happy down there? I want to know what I can do better".. than it is to come in with the attitude of.. "I was just talking to a couple of the guys about oral.. and I just ordered some things from Steve P. to try out.. I'm just feeling in the mood for some change.. I couldn't really find anything else though.. blah blah" (just basically being in the mood to learn new things.. willing, ready, and able).. It's a door that's now open, and might close soon.. it's her chance to express what she really likes in terms of oral.. with the added bonus that you've done her the favor of setting up the mood and breaking any awkward ice.. YOU raised the topic of oral for her, making her feel that you're not only completely comfortable and non-judgemental about it, but not in the frame of mind that you feel you're doing anything wrong, so she doesn't feel like she's hurting your feelings.. when you come in with this attitude.. you're removing all reason she has to be defensive and anything but completely honest and open.. there's an art to total comfort.. but this is one key to it.. Only for known issues though.. in this case, you KNEW that she was unhappy with oral, and genuinely wanted to improve, letting her enjoy it the way she wants it.. so it was a matter of affording her the comfort she needed to express her honest feelings freely..

You can however use both, and I hope you can see how.. to let her feel comfortable enough to let her open up and tell you what's bothering her.. you KNOW she wants to talk about something.. So comming in with the indirect gauge of telling her a story about how your parents recently were talking about things that they were holding in for a long time, and how it wasn't good at all.. and now it's much better and they feel so great that they finally got it off their chests and into the open.. and that "you know" there's been something she's wanted to tell you.. but you haven't bothered her about it.. but after seeing what your parents have been through, and how much better they felt after they got it into the open.. you just want to get things out in the open.. you just want to know.. (seriously.. shut-up and listen! let her talk.. put your opinions on the side.. and just listen.. take notes if you have to.. but this is the open total-comfort vibe you want to set up.. completely non-judgemental.. you don't want to put her on the defensive..).. Tell her.. whatever it is.. you don't want to "start working on it"... you want to "work on it right now, today, yesterday was already too late.."..

Bonus: (Ways to bi-pass a defensive attitude)

- The military is a master of this.. nobody likes to hear "deaths" in the news.. "casualties" sound better.. nobody wants to hear.. "we shot and fired at our own troops".. so someone came up with the cute term "friendly fire", doesn't it sound much nicer? And nobody likes to hear the word "war".. instead.. "military action" works better.. but they all mean the same thing.. they just stir up different emotions.. Language is important..

So instead of going ahead and using ordinary language.. learn to make your message more easy to digest for your intended listener..

- What's the problem? --> (I know something needs to change, we both know that, but you know what that something is.. and I just need your help to tell me what that change is)

You can hopefully see in this extreme example, what emotions and feelings the first question would bring.. the fact that's it's a question makes the defensive exit easier and more attractive "there's no problem" (denial) and it gets you nowhere, it stays locked up.. But notice how different the second way of saying it is..

Additional motivation: (.. because unless you tell me, I have no idea of knowing.. and I want to know.. because I want that same change you want..)

Best,

GrkScorp