Religious differences - first post and a doozy!

[Mish]

I don't see a lot of hope for you guys unless your wife is willing to loosen up. A lot.

Exactly. It's better to try and see if she will than to give up right away.

There is hope yet. I hope doctor will try everything and explores all possibilities before calling it quits.

[Lipp]

I totally agree, Vash.

I've been with two people of different religious beliefs than me, including my fiance. The only reason it works is because neither of them were particularly devout, and therefore didn't care if my beliefs were different. My fiance is a pretty lax Christian, thank god. Church on holidays only, very little prayers, and not too big up on the Jesus thing. I can tolerate his views as long as he tolerates mine.

.......................

[Gribble]

I'm guessing you don't know what the 700 Club is, do you Mish? I doubt it's reached Australia.

If she's a producer on the 700 Club she's the worst kind of Christian. No offense to the OP. The folks on the 700 club are the sort who claim 9/11 and Katrina are the faults of homosexuals and a decline in "family values" (whatever the hell those are supposed to be). They're the sort who believe a murderer and a rapist can get into heaven for believing in Jesus while Gandhi burns in hell.

I don't see much leeway. I hope for the good doctor's sake he's able to work something out. I doubt it, though.

[CocoChanel]

Even if you didn't want to believe how Jesus Died or anything else for that matter...

What is so wrong in being good, giving, forgiving, thanking, loving and not being cruel by many thing such as lying, stealing, hurting, killing and greed? Why is that such a bad thing? Is it hard to believe that the Holy Spirit wants you to be fruitful and reproduce and give to the earth... and Jesus was created to teach and be an example?

The Lord judges you according to your heart.

[vashti]

The Lord judges you according to your heart.

That's not what hardcore fundamentalists believe. According to them, your ticket to salvation is based on whether or not you believe in Jesus. All those other things you mentioned are just universal values.

[DoesntMatter]

Three of the smartest men of all time, Leonhard Euler, Carl Gauss, and Joseph Lagrange, a Swissman, German, and Italian, were all devout Christians, if that helps you reconcile so-called "logic" and religious beliefs

[Aeradalia]

Science and Religion attempt to answer two different questions...

Science tries to answer the question "How?" in regards to life and everything in it...

Religion attempts to answer the question "Why?" in regards to life and everything in it...

For the most part, they are unrelated and other than emotions, they logically do not conflict with each other because they aren't trying to answer the same question.

Religion requires you to believe in a higher power and science pretty much allows for it --- so long as it doesn't conflict with scientific evidence. At the moment, there is no evidence to prove or disprove the existence of a god or other form of higher power.

It's the decision to accept the idea of a higher power that is the issue --- not science vs. religion. So the question is... can you believe in a higher power? Science neither supports or denies the possibility... so it's on you to decide if you want to believe.

I'd strongly suggest taking another look at your system of beliefs... look at your reasons for thinking there isn't a god... and see if your previous religious views can be modified by your scientific views. Remember, the Bible was written thousands of years ago by people who would've thought cars were tools of the devil and waterskiing would be a form of 'running really, really fast on water.'

Oh btw... I'm an Atheist... so I'm not a Christian trying to return you to the 'flock'... These are realistic thoughts every person has to sort out when they decide if they want to believe there is a God or there isn't...

[IndiReloaded]

Again? Thought Mish & I hammered this out before:

Faith and scientific reason are apples & oranges.

As far as how to bridge the two, all that is needed is a willingness to concede there *might* be another answer to Life, The Universe, and Everything.

Your kids can read both the Bible and The God Delusion. We live in a free-market society. There is nothing wrong with promoting the benefits of atheism, same as the Christians who come to our door.

Just make sure they understand the difference (faith vs critical thinking):

[url]http://www.csicop.org/si/9012/critical-thinking.html[/url]

[Gribble]

The burden of proof lies with the party making the claim. We do not need evidence that disproves the existence of gods if evidence in favor of their existence cannot be provided.

It has always annoyed me when people claim there is no proof that these creatures do not exist. I don't need to prove it. Not my responsibility. To quote a professor of mine, "An absence of evidence is evidence of absence."

[IndiReloaded]

You know, so much of this would go away if religious folk would just be more particular about their language. Instead of saying

"God exists" (statement of fact -- unprovable)

They should say:

"I have faith God exists" (statement of faith, no need to prove)

I'd be fine with that. I'd be more inclined to stand on a hilltop & wave down the next UFO for a lift, but to each their own.

[clever_name]

[QUOTE=CocoChanel;434556]
What is so wrong in being good, giving, forgiving, thanking, loving and not being cruel by many thing such as lying, stealing, hurting, killing and greed? [/QUOTE

This is what most people should and do strive for, however, there are a lot of people that believe if you aren't Christian you are going to hell, even if you live a good life.

[ecojeanne]

i'm studying biology atm and i had a crisis of faith recently. i have eased up in my thinking things are happening because of God and all the magical stuff i grew up to believe, but i still believe in God because science doesn't explain everything. have you given up your faith completely, if so then you are very easily swayed and influenced imo

[Lipp]

i'm studying biology atm and i had a crisis of faith recently. i have eased up in my thinking things are happening because of God and all the magical stuff i grew up to believe, but i still believe in God because science doesn't explain everything. have you given up your faith completely, if so then you are very easily swayed and influenced imo

And how exactly do you think religion fills the gaps of what it cannot explain?

At least science accepts not knowing rather than filling in the blanks with coloured crayons.

[DoctorB2B]

I'm guessing you don't know what the 700 Club is, do you Mish? I doubt it's reached Australia.

If she's a producer on the 700 Club she's the worst kind of Christian. No offense to the OP. The folks on the 700 club are the sort who claim 9/11 and Katrina are the faults of homosexuals and a decline in "family values" (whatever the hell those are supposed to be). They're the sort who believe a murderer and a rapist can get into heaven for believing in Jesus while Gandhi burns in hell.

I don't see much leeway. I hope for the good doctor's sake he's able to work something out. I doubt it, though.

I should clarity ... she works for the Club however the radical thought process of one Mr. Pat Robertson is not one that my wife subscribes to. She isn't one of "those".

Three of the smartest men of all time, Leonhard Euler, Carl Gauss, and Joseph Lagrange, a Swissman, German, and Italian, were all devout Christians, if that helps you reconcile so-called "logic" and religious beliefs

All you did was name three highly intelligent individuals who believed in christianity, however what you didn't do was name off the other highly intelligent individuals who believe(d) in other religions.

Science and Religion attempt to answer two different questions...

Science tries to answer the question "How?" in regards to life and everything in it...

Religion attempts to answer the question "Why?" in regards to life and everything in it...

For the most part, they are unrelated and other than emotions, they logically do not conflict with each other because they aren't trying to answer the same question.

Religion requires you to believe in a higher power and science pretty much allows for it --- so long as it doesn't conflict with scientific evidence. At the moment, there is no evidence to prove or disprove the existence of a god or other form of higher power.

It's the decision to accept the idea of a higher power that is the issue --- not science vs. religion. So the question is... can you believe in a higher power? Science neither supports or denies the possibility... so it's on you to decide if you want to believe.

I'd strongly suggest taking another look at your system of beliefs... look at your reasons for thinking there isn't a god... and see if your previous religious views can be modified by your scientific views. Remember, the Bible was written thousands of years ago by people who would've thought cars were tools of the devil and waterskiing would be a form of 'running really, really fast on water.'

Oh btw... I'm an Atheist... so I'm not a Christian trying to return you to the 'flock'... These are realistic thoughts every person has to sort out when they decide if they want to believe there is a God or there isn't...

I mentioned on page one, in my second post that "I'm resigned to believing in something bigger, just not giving this something the name Jesus. That's certainly more in line with where I am right now."

I also mentioned "My evidence to myself that something exists: To say evolution has brought us to our current state seems utterly ridiculous in my mind. This would assert that evolving cells would have had cognitive thought, enough so where they would have designated the need for functional systems like our immune system which in itself is fascinating. Science teaches that evolution occurs through random mutations over time that are subject to genetic drift whereby they either remain in the population or simply find their way to extinction. This theory implies that a single strand of RNA splashing onto clay has evolved over the last 4.6 billion years into the modern day homo sapien.

There are simply some things that I can swallow and some that I can't and that is one of them." This is why I could not call myself an atheist.

I do appreciate your insight.

This is what most people should and do strive for, however, there are a lot of people that believe if you aren't Christian you are going to hell, even if you live a good life.

Therein lies the basis of my lack of belief in the christian faith. This is the issue I've wrestled with.

It's not a matter of "it being so hard or wrong to believe in God who wants this, that, and the other." It's the idea that this belief system says appr. 4.5 billion people on this planet will suffer wrath because they either a)were unfortunately born into a home that believes in something different and chose to believe that what they were raised on was 100% correct, b)were exposed to christianity and denied it or c)have never heard the faith (this isn't a christian tenet, however I know a great deal of those that do believe this way.) There are other reasons, I know.

Who am I to say to a believe in Islam that their God isn't the right one because I believe otherwise? Don't the believe the very same thing with just as much conviction?

Who am I to tell a Hindu that sorry, you're not going to be reincarnated, instead you're going to hell believe you chose to believe in the religion that your parents and every single one of your relatives believed in?

This doesn't sit well with me, and if I had to put a label on myself, I would say that I'm a deist.

i'm studying biology atm and i had a crisis of faith recently. i have eased up in my thinking things are happening because of God and all the magical stuff i grew up to believe, but i still believe in God because science doesn't explain everything. have you given up your faith completely, if so then you are very easily swayed and influenced imo

Un tiempo mas, I haven't given up on the idea of a creator. I've given up the title of christian. One of the major reasons is just above this response. I'm glad that it was that easy for you to overcome your crisis, however we're at different points in our lives, so my process of dealing with this will be different that yours.

If giving up my faith in christianity means I'm easily swayed or influenced to you, then consider me easily swayed or influenced, but realize that this has been a battle I've fought for many years, not overnight nor did I one day in the midst of all this decide I'm walking away ... it was gradual. I don't consider myself easily swayed.

[Mish]

So have you created a list of issues to be discussed? Have you talked to your wife Doctor? It seems like the answer to your problem rests solely on her ability to negotiate and compromise.