circumcision

[Tiay]

it's in the OT section and you don't have to read it. tho I'd be interested in your opinion, OV.

[vashti]

These risks are imo outweighed by the benefits of not cutting. Since it is a matter of opinion, I think it should be left up to the guy when he's older, not forced on him without consent..

True, it is a matter of how much risk you are willing to take. As for it being left up to the guy when he is older, I disagree. Parents make medical decisions for their children every day without asking their opinion. Vaccines, anyone?

Would you rather have a very slightly increased risk of UTI, or have your hood and half your clit chopped off?*******....yeah, I thought so. and how would you feel if your mom had made that choice for you?.

You are vastly exaggerating the "half your clit" equivelent. The clitoris is equivelent to the penis, not the foreskin.

I dislike them whole 'lasting longer' theory. I disagree with circumcising for that reason... I mean what the ****? .

You are reading too much into that statement. I have never in my life heard of anyone circumsizing for that reason; it is merely a side effect that I don't find objectionable.

Cut men often feel they're not getting as much pleasure out of sex or oral as they should. that's 'cos they aren't! some are even doing foreskin reconstruction. .

I don't think that men "often" feel they are sufferring and I don't know how they would know for sure how much pleasure is diminished. I think you would find that the ones who are going for reconstruction have some other psychological issues. In fact, they are often referred to a psychiatrist before a doctor will touch them. Perhaps things are different in Ireland.

Have you ever seen a circumcision being performed before?

[Kiechi]

True, it is a matter of how much risk you are willing to take. As for it being left up to the guy when he is older, I disagree. Parents make medical decisions for their children every day without asking their opinion. Vaccines, anyone?



You are vastly exaggerating the "half your clit" equivelent. The clitoris is equivelent to the penis, not the foreskin.



You are reading too much into that statement. I have never in my life heard of anyone circumsizing for that reason; it is merely a side effect that I don't find objectionable.



I don't think that men "often" feel they are sufferring and I don't know how they would know for sure how much pleasure is diminished. I think you would find that the ones who are going for reconstruction have some other psychological issues. In fact, they are often referred to a psychiatrist before a doctor will touch them. Perhaps things are different in Ireland.

Have you ever seen a circumcision being performed before?

Yes, I performed one on my dog before. All you need is a pair of scissors and sticky-back plastic. Job done.

[anachronistic]

I'm glad that I was not conciously available to make that decision, because today, if I wanted to get my lilwang circumcised, I'd have to live through it--not something I want to do. I sometimes wonder, though, if sex and masturbation and all that would feel better with a little foreskin.

[Gigabitch]

Lilwang. Hilarious!

Eurasian, you are terrible.

[vashti]

I've seen three circumcisions; they are a religious ritual if you are Jewish. Honestly, it was much less traumatic than I expected, both for me AND for the babies. They cried a little, but were easily soothed afterwards. You can also opt for local anesthesia if you choose, but my understanding is that the immature penis may have decreased sensation.

Lilwing - some people who are uncircumcised can't masturbate and can't have sex because their foreskins don't retract properly. It isn't all that uncommon; in fact that is the number one reason people have circumcisions after infancy.

[jurupa]

Girls! Girls Girls! come on...you're posting book length posts about AIDS on a love forums...COME ON!

Read more books then.

[Kiechi]

Lilwang. Hilarious!

Eurasian, you are terrible.

???


_________

[Gigabitch]

???


_________

Tell me you did not really go after your dog's pee-pee with scissors and sticky-back plastic.

[anachronistic]

I've seen three circumcisions; they are a religious ritual if you are Jewish. Honestly, it was much less traumatic than I expected, both for me AND for the babies. They cried a little, but were easily soothed afterwards. You can also opt for local anesthesia if you choose, but my understanding is that the immature penis may have decreased sensation.

Lilwing - some people who are uncircumcised can't masturbate and can't have sex because their foreskins don't retract properly. It isn't all that uncommon; in fact that is the number one reason people have circumcisions after infancy.

Oh.

A circumcision is not something I want to watch. I am not willing to watch a circumcision. Thank the gods that they don't have a channel called "circumvision tv"

[Kiechi]

Tell me you did not really go after your dog's pee-pee with scissors and sticky-back plastic.

No...




























I really used brown tape.

[The Great OV!!!]

it's in the OT section and you don't have to read it. tho I'd be interested in your opinion, OV.

No you don't cause I don't have one. Personally the only thing I know is that I am glad they didn't cut me. It is liking cutting one of my fingers off at birth...probably would get used to living with 4 and never miss the 5th one...but ...whats the difference since it's there and only makes like easier?

[Tiay]

I agree, parents should of course make medical decisions for their kids. But if there are hardly any medical reasons for circumcising, it is not a medical decision anymore, and it is certainly not a medical decision on which there is an agreed consensus such as with vaccines.

a kid is EXTREMELY unlikely to get penile cancer due to not being cut, before the age of, say, 15, right? Certainly wont be having sex before puberty and therefore any slight increased risk of STI's that has somehow been missed by all these studies will be irrelevant anyway. Infections due to improper care are also pretty rare. Really, everyone in Europe manages to grow up, be dirty little boys but also keep their foreskins clean and infection free. For the minority where a problem does arise, it can be dealt with then; you don't routinely take all appendixes out unless there's a problem.

I see absolutely no reason why you can't therefore wait and let the kid make up his own mind.

You are vastly exaggerating the "half your clit" equivelent. The clitoris is equivelent to the penis, not the foreskin.

I wasn't referring to the foreskin, which I would say is more equivalent to the hood- I was referring to the frenulum, which is often partially or even totally removed during circumcision.

quote from noharmm.org/IDcirc.htm : "The frenulum is a web of tissue connecting the foreskin to the underside of the glans (similar to the frenulum under the tongue or the upper lip). The penile frenulum is densely nerve-laden and is described as a male 'G-spot' — a very erogenous part of the penis."

okay, let me change the analogy; your hood, and an equivalent part of sensitive, erogenous nerve-laden area. is that any better? Actually, that probably isn't even enough, as there are many other damages that happen from circumcision which are listed on that site, for which I can't think of female equivalents.

You are reading too much into that statement. I have never in my life heard of anyone circumsizing for that reason; it is merely a side effect that I don't find objectionable.

oh, I didn't at all mean to imply that you agreed with this reason. I bet that this is at least part of the reason for some people though. I stumbled upon some random forum where people started discussion in detail whether it would cause men to last longer, and yes they clearly stated that it would affect their decision on circumcising future sons. scary.

I don't think that men "often" feel they are sufferring and I don't know how they would know for sure how much pleasure is diminished. I think you would find that the ones who are going for reconstruction have some other psychological issues. In fact, they are often referred to a psychiatrist before a doctor will touch them. Perhaps things are different in Ireland.

people don't get reconstruction in Ireland because we don't usually cut it off in the first place.

And no, I can't possibly know what it feels like. And a cut guy can't possibly know what being uncut would be like. But guys who were uncut and got cut could know; here's one story from the greatsexgames forum:

"He had to have penile surgery and when the doc came to talk to me afterwards to tell me all was well, he also mentioned an unexpected circumcision. I asked if he was kidding, then I asked if he'd warned my husband this might happen. No and no. Great. ... The first few weeks after the surgery were hell for him, besides the actual surgery itself, he just couldn't stand the feel of his underwear on his newly exposed penis. We bought him some silky boxers, which helped a little, but after time the head became less soft and more...tough and dry?
Sex is about the same, it takes a smidgen longer (like a minute or two). Oral sex has changed a little more. Some of the things I used to do to him that would have him jumping (ie:flicking my tongue against the head) don't even get a reaction out of him anymore. This also takes another minute or to longer than it used to. Sometimes it's frustrating for me just because I know what it's like to have him uncut and what pleasure I could give him from oral--not to mention how easy it was!"


also, I wasn't talking about surgical reconstruction, nor any silly penile growth shit. I'm talking about manual stuff that basically stretches the skin gradually, causing new cells to grow and sort making a surprisingly realistic fake foreskin. as far as I know you don't need a prescription for that nor do you need a doctor.
There's a few people on the greatsexgames forum that are considering and engaging in non surgical reconstruction. It's not because they're whackos, it's because the sort of people who listen to a show dedicated to the rational discussion of sex are also the sort who inform themselves about these things and realised that they lost, whereas most cut men just accept it and never even really think about it. If you google non-surgical foreskin restoration, you'll probably find similar stuff and info such as this; [url]http://www.norm-uk.org/foreskin_restoration.html[/url]

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from noharmm.org/IDcirc.htm: "Many circumcised men in the Awakenings survey reported that desensitization caused them to abandon or bypass the subtler pleasures of genital foreplay in favor of immediate intercourse, which would offer them greater stimulation. They often hurried through intercourse, however — often needing extraordinary and sometimes violent thrusting — to obtain sufficient stimulation for both pleasure and orgasm. Other men reported frequent reliance on behaviors offering more stimulation than vaginal sex (e.g., oral sex, anal sex or masturbation) or compensating for diminished quality of sexual response with quantity (sexual compulsivity)"

I've often wondered why men and women are often so incompatible with sex. ie, why do women seemingly never make enough natural lube? why do men rush past foreplay (generalisation, I know) when this makes the sex better for both? Why do some straight men want anal sex when this has no reproductive purpose? why do men prefer lots of pounding whereas women also like gentle sex? Well.. just maybe it's because... ..we've been cutting off bits of their genitals!?

Have you ever seen a circumcision being performed before?

not in real life, though I have seen a video;
[url]http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/video.html[/url]

They cried a little, but were easily soothed afterwards

really?

sure. no worries. just a little mutilation without anaesthetic. babies don't feel pain, of course... bullshit!

"In 1997, a study on circumcision and pain response "found circumcision so traumatic that doctors ended the study early rather than subject any more babies to the operation without anesthesia.", adding that "for those circumcised without anesthesia there was not only severe pain, but also an increased risk of choking and difficulty breathing." .... "Two of 11 newborns who received no anesthetic had potentially dangerous episodes within minutes of the procedure. One newborn lost muscle tone, stopped breathing several times and vomited. The other choked and stopped breathing briefly, the researchers said."
and most shockingly:
"Just as the fingernail is fused to the finger, at birth the foreskin is fused to the glans. In order to remove it, the foreskin is pulled, torn, crushed and cut. We now know that babies actually feel pain more intensely than adults. Most babies scream wildly. Blood pressure and heart rate increases markedly. Some go into severe shock, and lapse into a semi-comatose state. This is often misunderstood by medical professionals who later insist that the baby experienced no pain because they laid there without moving or crying. Babies continue to feel pain after the surgery"

(Up to 96% of babies in the U.S. and Canada receive no anesthesia)

[Tiay]

oohh, goody, I just found this quote from birthingthefuture.com

"The World Health Organization recognizes three types of female circumcision. Type I removes the clitoral hood and/or the clitoral tip. Type II removes the clitoral hood, clitoris, and part of all of the labia. Type III, also known as infibulation or pharaonic circumcision, involves removal of all external female genitalia and suturing of the vaginal opening.

Male circumcision can be compared to type I or II female circumcision. Although the glans is not harmed at the time of circumcision, the loss of protective structures causes it to dry out and lose sensitivity over time. It is also important to note that many of the nerves and pleasure receptors present in the clitoris are, in the male, present in the foreskin, so removal of these nerves constitutes a loss that can be most adequately compared to a partial clitoridectomy."

so maybe my original analogy was right after all. so girls.. say there was a smidgen lower risk of UTI, a certain type of rare cancer, and.. say, yeast infections, would you therefore get circumcised and have all your daughters circumcised?

[vashti]

Holy shit, Tiay - you don't really expect me to read all that, do you? I can google, too. Anyway, it looks like most of your info is coming from a biased source. Certainly you are free to refrain from circumcision for whatever reason you choose, which is no doubt influenced by what is "normal" in Ireland, and I am free to accept that a 60% reduction of HIV infection is medically significant. I don't look down upon people who choose to NOT circumcise, especially if they are making informed choices. And once again, they generally DO anesthesize babies when they are having circumcisions these days.

And yes, despite the inflammatory picture you posted, I do believe what I have seen with my own eyes, especially since I was opposed to circumcision when I saw it done. The way people respond to pain is really *very* individual. My daughter kind of looked like that picture when she was crying, both when being vaccinated, and also for no apparent reason. My son didn't cry much at all, even when he had such an extensive ear infection that his eardrum burst. :shrug: