Has the US lost its edge permanently?

[IndiReloaded]

LOL, DM you want to argue that the cream of Americans are smarter than the cream of Canadians--okay you win. You know very well where I went to school, so I can't deny I'm a product of the US education system. The smartest Canadians do end up heading south, we did, my son is American so I won't deny it.

But, there is a huge gap between the elite and the standard Joe in US society. And yes, the average US Joe is "stupid" on an international metric. Doesn't that bother you?

[lovesjoyajm]

Hahaha, speaking of the Fields Medal...

[url]http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/73352/august-22-2006/cheating-death---fields-medal[/url]

[IndiReloaded]

Well, DM, the published literacy rates by your government seem to be at odds with other studies. US college experience, especially where you are, is going to select for "not stupid".

But have a read of this and tell me you aren't disturbed:

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_States]Literacy in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

[IndiReloaded]

Perhaps, but that's the data that is out there.

Just out of curiosity, what is the ethnicity of the top student in your program?

[IndiReloaded]

Okay. Well, for mine it was a Brit/Canadian (dual) for undergrad. In Canada. For my grad program (US), it was an Indian. FWIW.

[SirWagginston]

The "top" Canadians don't go to American grad schools because the education there is better. They go because American schools are largely privatized, and have access to more money for research. They use the research money and live in the United States when they have to, but they're still Canadians, and often return home.

Canada has some good research universities now, anyways. UBC is ranked in the top 40 universities in the whole world, especially for the sciences, and has produced a lot of groundbreaking research. It is frequented by Nobel laureates at its Vancouver campus, and the Kelowna campus is rapidly expanding.

In fact, UBC is my main reason for coming to Canada. You can brag about the top 20 universities the United States has, but do most Americans go to those? No. They are too expensive, so the average Joe goes to a crappier school. UBC, meanwhile, is priced like a community college would be in the States. A school of similar repute in the United States would cost you at least three times as much in tuition.

[Lipp]

1.

Exclude our inner city schools that are almost entirely black and have a 5% passing rate and that difference would vanish

For the second part, definitely NOT, but blacks have won very few Nobel prizes, which is what we were comparing.

2.

Anyways, your claims about experiences with clueless Americans is definitely extreme. How do I know it's extreme? Because I don't know a single American who doesn't know where Canada is, and I've come into a lot more contact with Americans than you obviously have

I have no comparison to make between average joe Americans and average joe Germans. But I never considered by peers from high school "stupid

Perhaps it's a language barrier issue, but to me these four statements, two per topic, seem to be contradicting one another.


To clarify, I don't think that Americans are stupid, the quote I posted basically clarified what Indi has been getting at when comparing the EU vs US approach economy and education-wise.

Its not helping the average person tho. A great education system for the cream, but not for the masses.

[IndiReloaded]

UBC is a great school. But its not Harvard or MIT or Cornell. It could be, but its not.

And to save DM the comment: Yes. Most of the UBC faculty, at least in the sciences, did some part of their training in the US (or UK).

[SirWagginston]

UBC is a great school. But its not Harvard or MIT or Cornell. It could be, but its not.

I think they're trying to fix that right now. That's what I read about them from themselves and others, at least. Their funding sure has exploded, and not just due to construction at Okanagan.

Top 40 in the world is good enough for me, though. Especially for tuition under $10,000. If you tried to take some classes at MIT for $10,000, they would laugh at you.

[IndiReloaded]

I can't post anymore on this. LOL.

[SirWagginston]

Well the US government sure as Hell didn't give me anything. Granted, I have a crappy high school record and respectable household income, but what's that to me? Canada is the better deal for me and my family, so that's where I will go to study, get my PhD, and eventually teach and do my research. I think the United States should consider that a problem for them, because that means my tax dollars, discoveries and intellectual capital will be benefiting someone else.

[Junket]

I wish each individual state was more independent, and less subject to the influence of other states.

[Kiechi]

DM --- You're a smart guy and all, but you really do talk wet sometimes.

[SirWagginston]

... what the Hell is "talking wet"? It's not on Urban Dictionary!

[dewilliams2]

You can't measure a countries overall intelligence level based on how many Nobel Prize winners it has....thats like measuring a countries fitness levels by the number of olympic athletes. We should be focusing on the larger population and not the smallest sector of the best of either country.

I will not deny that America has fallen behind some countries in several fields. I will also not deny that there are not a lot of ignorant people but not just in America.

As I said though, that does not mean that we are all ignorant. I have seen both sides. I've been to college and been around brilliant people and I've grown up in rural America and met those who struggle to read. Diversity is not always a bad thing.

A lot of it does have to do with the many cultural differences we have in this country. We have a very large baby-boomer population and up until about 20 years ago you could find a good paying job with a high school diploma or even less working in a factory. And many people did that. Now they are 40-60 and there is not getting most of them to go back now.

Then you must consider the fact that our southern states to a large degree are still recovering from slavery and the civil war. They are still behind the North in many things but most importantly in industry and education. In Appalachia there are still places where people get married at the age of 14.

Then you move to the inner cities and the school systems are struggling to meet the demand of that many children. A lot of times the lowest income neighborhoods are full of kids who do not believe there is any way out of that poverty so why really try. I don't think it is because they are black as DM seems to insinuate although I hope I'm reading his meaning incorrectly. That just happens to be a coincidence and as I said a product of slavery/segregation.

And then we do have a large number of immigrants who come to this country and do not have a high level of education. Some do but most do not.

Now those are some excuses but they are just excuses. The question is how do we fix them?

The baby-boomer problem will fix itself...they will die over the next 20-40 years.

The south/Appalachia/inner cities is more of a challenge. They have been trying to fix this for years. I don't know the best way to do it. I have some ideas and maybe I will be back on later to post them but right now I need to get ready for work.

But in my opinion if you want to talk about American education we should not be discussing those at the very top but why there are those at the very bottom.

My opinion is that when not presented with a motivation to better oneself such as a good job then why would anybody put in the work? We must always consider there are people who come form worse backgrounds than we do. I sympathize for them and attempt to understand them.